Motion: full keel vs small catamaran.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Deep draft gives the ability to sail a tight angle to windward. It's a good measure of windward performance.
What cat do you own?
We have never found any problems lifting out.
Have you sailed your cat on long ocean passages. Just wondering how you got on. We don't see many cats doing the West to East Atlantic leg. Monohulls out number them 10:1.
Quite different to the milk run in the East To West direction where is all down wind. Like you say, horses for courses.

So only the Prout Snowgoose?

[pianopraze]

Originally Posted by smj

Best speed we saw on our last cat was slightly over 17, though the previous owner had her up to 26.5. Like I said, different strokes for different folks.

I’d love to get that speed, but guessing that was a larger cat. That’s why I specified small cat in this thread.

I’m just not going to be able to afford a large. Maybe an Edelcat if I get lucky. Which is honestly larger than I want, but I like what I’ve been hearing about them.

They are supposedly more comfortable than Prouts blue water. And that is whole point of this thread as I got pounded bad a couple times. Certain waves states are just bad in a Prout. Everything flying up an nd down, off shelves. Wife scared. I wasn’t as I was having fun being outside, but I thought later maybe I should have? Don’t know. Like I said she was a tank. Never felt afraid in her.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Deep draft gives the ability to sail a tight angle to windward. It's a good measure of windward performance.
What cat do you own?
We have never found any problems lifting out.
Have you sailed your cat on long ocean passages. Just wondering how you got on. We don't see many cats doing the West to East Atlantic leg. Monohulls out number them 10:1.
Quite different to the milk run in the East To West direction where is all down wind. Like you say, horses for courses.

My own cat 13x8.5m is 30 years old, recent gold star survey no defects. Will crucify any 45ft mono to windward can't even see them over the stern downwind. Exceeds wind speed in light winds 4-6 knots. This means you are pulling 35 degrees apparent downwind. One and a half times RTW, logged circa 130,000 NM, 6 years west and east in the Pacific, including a west east Atlantic crossing. Leg from Bermuda to Azores, apart from 2 days all 24h runs were in excess of 200NM. Same crossing most of the monos were hitting 130NM with the really big ones 160NM. Indian Ocean involved a 5 day, 650NM beat from 150NM south of Madagascar to La Reunion against the trades, with winds up to 40 knots, single handed due to a medical emergency. Sailed (not hove-to) in 57 knots and 8m breaking waves under AP for 50 hours. I was hove to with hatches battened down with things flying all around in much less daunting conditions on a delivery of a much larger mono.

It is more expensive to buy and run than a 45ft mono but maybe not a 60ft mono. A 30ft cat has the space of a 45ft mono. With all creature comforts I rarely need a marina slip so storage costs while on board are low. Haul outs are often avoided by being able to dry out.



One should not decry the abilities of cats due to bias because of lack of experience or their cost. Personal preferences aside there are good and bad cats as there are good and bad monos.


In answer to the OP's question, I like his wife would much rather go to sea on a Prout or a Wharram than a roly poly.

[smj]

Originally Posted by pianopraze

I’d love to get that speed, but guessing that was a larger cat. That’s why I specified small cat in this thread.

I’m just not going to be able to afford a large. Maybe an Edelcat if I get lucky. Which is honestly larger than I want, but I like what I’ve been hearing about them.

They are supposedly more comfortable than Prouts blue water. And that is whole point of this thread as I got pounded bad a couple times. Certain waves states are just bad in a Prout. Everything flying up an nd down, off shelves. Wife scared. I wasn’t as I was having fun being outside, but I thought later maybe I should have? Don’t know. Like I said she was a tank. Never felt afraid in her.

The cat is a TRT 1200 GT, 40’ so not large by today’s standards.
The Edels are nice cats. They sail well, have a good motion, which I attribute to the fact they have two hulls and the bridgedeck cabin bolted together on 3 aluminum cross beams, but they do pound due to low bridgedeck clearance.
The Prouts for the most part are very well built seaworthy cats but the motion offshore to me is undesirable, and they are not a good performing cat.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

My own cat 13x8.5m is 30 years old, recent gold star survey no defects. Will crucify any 45ft mono to windward can't even see them over the stern downwind. Exceeds wind speed in light winds 4-6 knots. This means you are pulling 35 degrees apparent downwind. One and a half times RTW, logged circa 130,000 NM, 6 years west and east in the Pacific, including a west east Atlantic crossing. Leg from Bermuda to Azores, apart from 2 days all 24h runs were in excess of 200NM. Same crossing most of the monos were hitting 130NM with the really big ones 160NM. Indian Ocean involved a 5 day, 650NM beat from 150NM south of Madagascar to La Reunion against the trades, with winds up to 40 knots, single handed due to a medical emergency. Sailed (not hove-to) in 57 knots and 8m breaking waves under AP for 50 hours. I was hove to with hatches battened down with things flying all around in much less daunting conditions on a delivery of a much larger mono.

It is more expensive to buy and run than a 45ft mono but maybe not a 60ft mono. A 30ft cat has the space of a 45ft mono. With all creature comforts I rarely need a marina slip so storage costs while on board are low. Haul outs are often avoided by being able to dry out.



One should not decry the abilities of cats due to bias because of lack of experience or their cost. Personal preferences aside there are good and bad cats as there are good and bad monos.


In answer to the OP's question, I like his wife would much rather go to sea on a Prout or a Wharram than a roly poly.

But you can't cary too bikes, two full sets of dive gear, kite surfing gear, wingfoiling gear, 2 seeing machines, a diesel generator, a large watermaker, two fridges, an ice machine, etc and still sail fast. Weight is the killer of performance cats. It's horses for courses.
We just did Antigua to Horta in 15 days in our monohull. Not all monohulls are the same just like cats.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by pianopraze

I’d love to get that speed, but guessing that was a larger cat. That’s why I specified small cat in this thread.

I’m just not going to be able to afford a large. Maybe an Edelcat if I get lucky. Which is honestly larger than I want, but I like what I’ve been hearing about them.

They are supposedly more comfortable than Prouts blue water. And that is whole point of this thread as I got pounded bad a couple times. Certain waves states are just bad in a Prout. Everything flying up an nd down, off shelves. Wife scared. I wasn’t as I was having fun being outside, but I thought later maybe I should have? Don’t know. Like I said she was a tank. Never felt afraid in her.

You say "blue water" but haven't really defined your concept of "blue water" lots of Prouts have circumnavigated so there is no question about their capability. The conditions that you might meet on the ocean are different than those you expect coastal sailing. Not from the point of view of sea state or wind but without the time constrains of coastal sailing the ability to make land fall without incurring damage are the primary objective.


Bashing to windward for days on end is not fun, it's not fun on a 40ft long keeled mono. On a Prout just stop, fore reach for a day or two. Fore reaching on a cat is quite relaxing, go about your daily tasks, cooking, showering, playing games and being able to see out is rather pleasant on a cat much more so than being down below, hove to on a mono that will definitely be rolling around.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

But you can't cary too bikes, two full sets of dive gear, kite surfing gear, wingfoiling gear, 2 seeing machines, a diesel generator, a large watermaker, two fridges, an ice machine, etc and still sail fast. Weight is the killer of performance cats. It's horses for courses.
We just did Antigua to Horta in 15 days in our monohull. Not all monohulls are the same just like cats.

Actually I can. I no longer carry 2 bikes, that were stored inside, sold them in NZ as they never got used. I have 2 full sets of dive gear, A DIVE COMPRESSOR, TWO 3.1m RHIBS (1 air deck and 1 aluminium), TWO OUTBOARD MOTORS, water maker, one large fridge, one large freezer. With 1.2KW of solar I have no need for a diesel generator and don't take ice.


2250NM in 15 days is only 150NM per day about average for most monos. Our best 24 hour run is 254NM

[pianopraze]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

You say "blue water" but haven't really defined your concept of "blue water" lots of Prouts have circumnavigated so there is no question about their capability. The conditions that you might meet on the ocean are different than those you expect coastal sailing. Not from the point of view of sea state or wind but without the time constrains of coastal sailing the ability to make land fall without incurring damage are the primary objective.


Bashing to windward for days on end is not fun, it's not fun on a 40ft long keeled mono. On a Prout just stop, fore reach for a day or two. Fore reaching on a cat is quite relaxing, go about your daily tasks, cooking, showering, playing games and being able to see out is rather pleasant on a cat much more so than being down below, hove to on a mono that will definitely be rolling around.

Blue water: I will eventually sail from Florida to the Philippines. Unless I just get a Gemini for Florida/Bahamas, sell it, and buy another boat in Philippines.

But I am very sentimental. Still morning selling my Prout, don’t think I will want to sell my next boat. So want one to cross Pacific. I know it’s silly, but it’s who I am.

Not questioning Prout capability. That’s why I bought my last one! Definitely number one on my list to buy again this time. Or maybe tied with Edelcat. There are none close/affordable/in good enough condition vs price right now.

40k Prout in Florida (only one close) that I would have to spend a year rebuilding like I did my last prout. I only paid 26k for my old one and it was in better condition - but still needed 10-20k and a years work. I wouldn’t mind it if I could get it much cheaper (I enjoyed bringing my last Prout back to life) but wife doesn’t want to spend another year refitting.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by pianopraze

Blue water: I will eventually sail from Florida to the Philippines. Unless I just get a Gemini for Florida/Bahamas, sell it, and buy another boat in Philippines.

Any second hand (even new) boats require an element of work post purchase. Stick out for decent Prout, one will come up, probably two it's like waiting for a bus.


It is a downwind run to the Philippines with light winds north and south of PNG. Enjoy the journey on the level your wife will thank you.


I persuaded friends to go through Panama after extolling the virtues of the Pacific. I received an email many months later commenting that I hadn't warned them how roly the anchorages were. They had a mono it never even entered my mind that there was a problem.

[pianopraze]

Originally Posted by smj

The cat is a TRT 1200 GT, 40’ so not large by today’s standards.
The Edels are nice cats. They sail well, have a good motion, which I attribute to the fact they have two hulls and the bridgedeck cabin bolted together on 3 aluminum cross beams, but they do pound due to low bridgedeck clearance.
The Prouts for the most part are very well built seaworthy cats but the motion offshore to me is undesirable, and they are not a good performing cat.

I’m hearing great things about Edel cats. Want to look/sail one in person if I can next year. There are several in our price range but none close.

Mine was great all except a certain short period where she would pound. That was traumatic to my wife. That’s whole point of this thread. But we will probably end up on a cat as every discussion about full keel ends with "but we can’t beach it" / "I want to take it into beach"

And she’s not wrong. We plan on Floridas and Caribbean for next 5 plus years. I can get her brother to join me on passage and fly her to Philippines.

Knock on wood but I always thought I would be seasick but never got seasick on my Prout. Actually only had a problem when I got back on land after being on board for long periods.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by pianopraze

And she’s not wrong. We plan on Floridas and Caribbean for next 5 plus years. I can get her brother to join me on passage and fly her to Philippines.

Even in a rush Fl to Philippines is will be best part of a year. Lots of great places to see on the way.


If the boat will spend the season in the Caribbean why so concerned about the beam?


Once you remove the beam restriction there are a lot more options. Example.https://boats.waa2.com/detail?id=a65...88e5&q=kelsall

[pianopraze]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Even in a rush Fl to Philippines is will be best part of a year. Lots of great places to see on the way.


If the boat will spend the season in the Caribbean why so concerned about the beam?


Once you remove the beam restriction there are a lot more options. Example.https://boats.waa2.com/detail?id=a65...88e5&q=kelsall

That’s a very fine vessel and in my price range, Ty.

1. Price (purchase). Most are much more than one you listed.
2. Maintenance - took my Prout’s bottom to the glass, filled some soft spots, and repainted. That was a TOOOOOONNNNN of work. Not to mention cost. I can imagine doing that again on a large cat, by myself, would be almost overwhelming.
3. Weight - getting stuck on sand and using anchors to pull myself back to sea.
4. Comfort maneuvering. My Prout was largest vessel I’d ever sailed. I got quite good with dual rudders and outboard maneuvering my Prout in and out of slips. But man was I scared, especially at first. A larger vessel scares me. My Prout was basically a sail above water and that could make docking raise the pulse rate in any wind.
4. Insurance. Goes with price. I paid 500/year on my 26k prout. More money more expense.
5. Marina. Will have to have slip for first year or so. My Prout fit in a normal slip so was less money.

"Money, money, money. Must be funny. In a rich man’s world."

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Something doesn't stack up. Your boat is 42ft but only weighs 8.5t. You suggest the hull is 1" thick with a stem 2" thick but your boat only weighs 8.5t. My 44ft boat weighs 18t. 10t more than your 42 ft boat so how is your boat built out of 1" thick laminate and so light?
A Prout snowgoose weighs 5.5t. It has no lead ballast so if you knock off the 3t of ballast from your boat, your 42ft mono is actually fat lighter than the 35ft cat that the OP is talking about

8T? When she rolled out on the travel lift She was weighing almost 14T.

My boat is super thick in the bow and gets thinner as she goes aft, on her sides she is about 3/4 and the transom is half an inch thick. she is also super thick down low and thins as you go up. They designed the layup to be strongest where it would need it most.

What make is your boat?

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Actually I can. I no longer carry 2 bikes, that were stored inside, sold them in NZ as they never got used. I have 2 full sets of dive gear, A DIVE COMPRESSOR, TWO 3.1m RHIBS (1 air deck and 1 aluminium), TWO OUTBOARD MOTORS, water maker, one large fridge, one large freezer. With 1.2KW of solar I have no need for a diesel generator and don't take ice.


2250NM in 15 days is only 150NM per day about average for most monos. Our best 24 hour run is 254NM

No it's not average by a long way. We had light winds. We didn't find another mono in the 40-50 ft range that did it faster. The only boat we could find that did it faster was 51ft.
Cats were all slow since most of them have small sail area and too much drag in light wind.
Lots of boats motored for days and days and ran out of fuel. We did a fuel drop for one such boat.
We have been I the Azores over a month and still on our fuel we bought in Antigua.
Some cats are fast. Some are slow ditto monohulls. You can't compare apples with oranges.
I have sailed many cats and mons doing deliveries so have quite a bit of experience on all types. I never went on a high performance Cat that could carry all the toys and have all the performance, unless it was over 60ft..

[smj]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

No it's not average by a long way. We had light winds. We didn't find another mono in the 40-50 ft range that did it faster. The only boat we could find that did it faster was 51ft.
Cats were all slow since most of them have small sail area and too much drag in light wind.
Lots of boats motored for days and days and ran out of fuel. We did a fuel drop for one such boat.
We have been I the Azores over a month and still on our fuel we bought in Antigua.
Some cats are fast. Some are slow ditto monohulls. You can't compare apples with oranges.
I have sailed many cats and mons doing deliveries so have quite a bit of experience on all types. I never went on a high performance Cat that could carry all the toys and have all the performance, unless it was over 60ft..

The performance cat is my toy, doesn’t take much more to make me happy.