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captain58sailin · 17-02-2010, 07:17

The only limit to what you can do; is yourself. There are always the armchair sailors that settle in with a copy of the latest sailing magazine that can pick apart anyone's methods, sometimes, even they have valid input. Mesquaukee has illustrated what is possible if you leave yourself open to the adventure of it all. Those experiences are still open to the souls that are willing to cast off the dock lines and leave the security of the harbor behind and not consider the ocean an enemy; but rather the hard stuff around it. There is always danger to the foolish and unaware, the same could be said for getting into a car and going to the local grocery story. Every day you wake up on the right side of the dirt is a gift, and woe to those who do not appreciate it, there are a great many mysteries out & about as well as the journey to the center of your mind, which will occur if you can leave all the unneeded distractions on the beach and enjoy the experience of the moment. Thank you for allowing me to pontificate my view, I always get excited when I read about new guys getting started up, it brings me back to the days when it was all new, and reminds me about why I still do earn my living from the sea and will retire and die there with a smile on my face. I hope we can cross paths one day and enjoy a yarn or two, in a place only a few have seen and most of the landlubbers can't even dream of, best of luck on your quest.

**boatman61** · 17-02-2010, 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Just go out and price the things you may need. Proceed accordingly. And even if you do most of the work yourself, you still have to buy the paint, varnish, sandpaper, replacement parts, tools etc. that you will need to do the job.

Even those who plan to live a very modest cruising lifestyle tend to underestimate the costs. And there is always the unexpected.

True... but if you go out and cost out how much you need to buy and maintain a house... paint, sand paper, agency fee's.... removal costs when your sick of where you are... etc, etc....
Who'd ever buy a house.....

rover88 · 17-02-2010, 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Just go out and price the things you may need. Proceed accordingly. And even if you do most of the work yourself, you still have to buy the paint, varnish, sandpaper, replacement parts, tools etc. that you will need to do the job.

Even those who plan to live a very modest cruising lifestyle tend to underestimate the costs. And there is always the unexpected.

Agreed and the very reason I conceded your point on certain cost estimates.

I have been refitting and outfitting over the past year and noted that it is not the "big things" that eat away at the budget, but rather the unending amount of "little things" that adds up.

That said, We will be ready to go soon on far less than half the budget you proposed. Granted we will not be plying the oceans in a shiny new boat replendant with all the bells and whistles, but will be in a sound vessel, safely equipped, that will meet our modest - yet not Spartan - needs.

As for a cruising budget, there is a fixed amount and we will have to live within those means. When the budget is exhausted, then it's time to come home and work some more.

Once again I will quote James Baldwin when asked "How much does it cost to go cruising?" - "As much as you've got".

Curmudgeon · 17-02-2010, 08:39

There are also costs associated with cruising itself. You are going to run the motor and will have to pay for fuel. You will have to get cruising permits and visas. You will need courtesy flags. You may have to pay for a mooring or rights to anchor in popular locations.

You need to eat, and rice/beans get tiring after awhile. You can get protein by fishing, but you need lures, etc. plus fuel to cook the fish. And so on and so on.

What about companionship? Are you going solo or with a partner? Partners can be expensive. And even if you go solo, you will want some sort of social life. That costs money as well.

**boatman61** · 17-02-2010, 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

There are also costs associated with cruising itself. You are going to run the motor and will have to pay for fuel. You will have to get cruising permits and visas. You will need courtesy flags. You may have to pay for a mooring or rights to anchor in popular locations.

You need to eat, and rice/beans get tiring after awhile. You can get protein by fishing, but you need lures, etc. plus fuel to cook the fish. And so on and so on.

What about companionship? Are you going solo or with a partner? Partners can be expensive. And even if you go solo, you will want some sort of social life. That costs money as well.

Being a Brit and European the only place I've needed a visa and cruising permit was in the US.... Caribbean, Europe and Atlantic Islands no sweat.
As to fuel... sail until you HAVE to motor... if becalmed resist the urge to press the button.. do some maintainance, read a book... catch some shuteye or... make love....
Courtesy flags homemade from 'Rag Bin'...
Who needs 'Popular Spots' that's where the people your trying to escape from go....
I eat a varied diet.. just do not over eat that's why at age 61 and 6'2" tall, I weigh 80kgs and have a 32" waist.... move fast and have loadsa energy....lol.
Hate fish... Chicken, Pork, Beef n Vegies with a bitta fruit thrown in...
Case of 24 beers 7euro=$10... Pork chops.... 2.50euro for 6...... thats 3 days food n drink, curried, fried, chinese...lol.. wiv rice, veg, bean sprouts.. Cheers...
As to a Partner.... two can live as cheap as one... unless your 'paying' for your companionship.... volunteers are much cheaper...lmao

Curmudgeon · 17-02-2010, 09:34

Two can live as cheaply as one (sort of) so long as your partner likes the same diet and has the same tastes as you.

**boatman61** · 17-02-2010, 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Two can live as cheaply as one (sort of) so long as your partner likes the same diet and has the same tastes as you.

The only Partner worth sailing with.... enjoys a drink, smokes, likes a laugh, appreciates the sea and lifestyle, has a palate for Foods of the World... excluding fresh monkey brains and other "Exotic Foods"....
Anything less = deteriorating quality of life... may as well move back ashore where you can lose her for 14hrs outa 24....
But thats me... others have different needs... some actually enjoy the abuse.... lmao.
Sorry Danger... drifting off the 'Plot' here I think.... something to do with a boat....
Ran into a guy down in the Algarve in 08, seen them a coupla times since.. Brit with Portuguese wife... been living happily on their 36ftr for 6 years... no desire to give it up.

Curmudgeon · 17-02-2010, 19:46

I think I'll pass on the smoking, thank you.

DangerCell · 18-02-2010, 03:37

LOL Curmudgeon, you really are a curmudgeon! I'll be back on the Cape end of March till it gets cold again and I frequent Cambridge and other funky parts of Bean town

If my motorcycle and long hair don't annoy ya too much we should do lunch sometime!

Sailorman, you just described my woman...AND my philosophy

But she just needs a bit more space than I...funny cuz she is so tiny (litterally 1/2 of me)...and if she isn't smiling it will be a mighty short trip.

Anyhow, boats.

I am focusing in on these next 4 at this point and would love your opinions of them (most notably how they will likely handle at sea...good bad and the ugly) and suggestions for others I may be missing.

First the Westerlys (Sealord 39 and Corsair 36):
What I don't like about em is that spade rudder. Just seems that if you look at it wrong it could break off. Makes me want to invent an "emergency rudder" that can just be clamped off the arse...what I do like about them is that they are cavernous! The woman will LOVE them (course I too am imagining where the dive gear and folding bikes will go)....and provided i don't slip back and snap the rudder on reef or rock they seem as if they are quite seaworthy (english built, Lloyds cert????)....like the shallow draft too.

I have taken a liking to this particular 39 Sealord. It represents the largest in both size and budget. I actually talked to the owners (who knows they might read this) a few months back and they seemed the sort that keep things tip top...were aboard when I called. It also seems to already have some of the "newish" gear I would want to have (power management, new GPS, among others), recent bottom work, etc... which would reduce "refit" costs...
1984 Westerly Sealord Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I like the 36 Corsair probably even more.
I have had some experience with one. I "helped" (basically could have been alone) a family friend move his 36 Corsair about 150 miles east bound in the LA ICW to New Orleans. I put helped in quotes because I was actually made to "captain" it (owner was greener than I which is just barely possible)....Long story short, the boat was in rough shape. Most glaring things I saw were: all engine instruments were inoperable, power management displays were dead (could not tell if it was charging), fuel filter of unknown age/condition with no spare, engine compartment was not draining to bilge properly so water was up to mounts on arrival, power supply to GPS was intermittent, lone anchor chain was badly corroded, and the engine didn't like to idle etc...

I was ready to walk back to New Orleans but the owner insisted we go. I figured screw it, once in the ICW if it shits the bed I'll just coast aground and hitch hike back to the Big Easy! So I patched it up and checked it over best I could (chopped bad section of anchor chain out, adjusted throttle cable so it idled most of the time, pumped out water to bilge, re-wired GPS sort of) and instruments be dammed we left. Was the first boat I ever docked let alone "captained"....but as it turned out the choice of captain was a sound one (describing the owner as green was an understatement I soon found)...spent 3 days transporting her.

It impressed me at least under power, but admittedly I have little to compare it to. It liked to go straight on its own, steering very precise at all speeds, and was SUPER maneuverable at docking speed....would turn 360 deg in its own length.
This is just a good example of one, I like the ketch rig but only a few were rigged this way from what I have found:
1986 Westerly Corsair Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

If I were doing this alone I would go for one of the following 2 without hesitation...they have the full keel and seem to be proven tough bluewater boats...I feel like in heavy seas if you could just stay on that they would stay on top no matter what which makes me feel pretty warm and fuzzy inside:

I am liking this particular Cape Dory 36 and rumor has it I can keep it pretty close to my budget (thanks Doodle)....Again I like the modified full keel. Looks like it can take a hit and still retain its rudder. And this one seems tip top with a lot of recent equipment I would want on any boat so it seems it would take little to set her up for another go after the initial investment:
1982 Cape Dory Cutter Rig Full Keel Sail Boat For Sale -

Ok this last one is my personal favorite, and as it happens the least expensive if asking price is any indication. But likely the "Admiral's" least favorite. It is a Hallberg-Rassy Rasmus. Just read a book that I really liked describing a couple taking one of these 3/4 of the way around the pacific from Seattle to Hong Kong which emotionally biases me significantly. This particular one being the only one in my part of the world AND that it has just had a significant re-fit makes it a real contender. Again even by Crumudgeon's math this one should not take much. Hmmmm, wonder about the engine??? Well it eeent original equipment at least:
1972 Hallberg-Rassy Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

So what can you guys tell me about these choices and my logic behind them? Are there any other boats I should be looking at?

Thanks!

Doodles · 18-02-2010, 04:42

Danger,

Just a couple quick notes. We looked at a Corsair and liked it very much, except for the ceiling liner which tended to sag in several areas. Its nothing structural, just looked bad and my wife hated that. Lots of room though, like you say. I personally wouldn't worry about the rudder. The Westerly's have proven to be very tough boats and spade rudders have been sailed all over the world for quite a few years now. By the way the Sealord is just up the road from the Cape Dory if come down to take a look. I'm around the corner also living aboard at a marina and would be glad to show you around (but leaving for Thailand for several months on March 10, so hurry).

The HR is a good boat, but being a 1972 its almost 15 years older than the others. Nothing wrong with an older boat but something to consider.

Doodles · 18-02-2010, 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DangerCell

Are there any other boats I should be looking at?

I'd look at this one:

1980 Cabo Rico sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

**boatman61** · 18-02-2010, 05:36

Hi Danger...
The Westerly's look fantastic and apart from the $5000 price difference can see little to choose between them... having owned a coupla Westerly's in the past I'm sorta biased anyway.... great sailboats and I would not worry about the rudder... only heard of one case of a lost rudder and if memory serves me well it was down to corrosion caused by electrolysis.....
I also favour the Rassey... one thing I know for sure is that most v-berths are untenable at sea... the noise and bouncing around is to much for most women so an aft cabin which can be kept separate from the main 'Living Area' is loved.... also the Westerlys 2 heads/showers is a great asset for living aboard
Personally.... if you have the cash go for one of the 'Westerlys'... the Corsair will be that tad cheaper in Marinas and easier to maintain but as I said... either is great... and they hold price well.
The Cape Dory is a beautiful boat too... in its own right.. but no aft cabin makes for a harder to manage 'Living Area'..
Good selection mate....

This I feel is good competition for the Westerlys....
1987 Pearson 39 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - uk.yachtworld.com=

And this is Gorgeous..... full keel to boot but plain interior... love the open topdeck tho...
http://uk.yachtworld.com/core/listin...ng_id=1709&url=
Sorry mate... enjoying looking at boats I'll never afford...lmao

DangerCell · 18-02-2010, 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doodles

Danger,

Just a couple quick notes. We looked at a Corsair and liked it very much, except for the ceiling liner which tended to sag in several areas. Its nothing structural, just looked bad and my wife hated that. Lots of room though, like you say. I personally wouldn't worry about the rudder. The Westerly's have proven to be very tough boats and spade rudders have been sailed all over the world for quite a few years now. By the way the Sealord is just up the road from the Cape Dory if come down to take a look. I'm around the corner also living aboard at a marina and would be glad to show you around (but leaving for Thailand for several months on March 10, so hurry).

The HR is a good boat, but being a 1972 its almost 15 years older than the others. Nothing wrong with an older boat but something to consider.

Westerlys: Yeah saw it first hand, the head liner on the one I transported was dismal, coming down all over the place...the foam behind it turns to dust. Well known/documented issue and some creative fixes (per their owners club)...noticed many pics of the ones for sale pan down away from the headliner lol...the sealord i posted shows my favorite "fix"...rip it ALL out and replace with wood (look at aft cab pics...nice)...

Man, the invite to be shown around (and maybe look with me, hehe) is great but I will not be back till end of march...can't get out of that at this point...when will you be back?

Ok so spade is not kiss of death and they are seaworthy? Big diff in handling of 39 and 36???

DangerCell · 18-02-2010, 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Hi Danger...
The Westerly's look fantastic and apart from the $5000 price difference can see little to choose between them... having owned a coupla Westerly's in the past I'm sorta biased anyway.... great sailboats and I would not worry about the rudder... only heard of one case of a lost rudder and if memory serves me well it was down to corrosion caused by electrolysis.....
I also favour the Rassey... one thing I know for sure is that most v-berths are untenable at sea... the noise and bouncing around is to much for most women so an aft cabin which can be kept separate from the main 'Living Area' is loved.... also the Westerlys 2 heads/showers is a great asset for living aboard
Personally.... if you have the cash go for one of the 'Westerlys'... the Corsair will be that tad cheaper in Marinas and easier to maintain but as I said... either is great... and they hold price well.
The Cape Dory is a beautiful boat too... in its own right.. but no aft cabin makes for a harder to manage 'Living Area'..
Good selection mate....

This I feel is good competition for the Westerlys....
1987 Pearson 39 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - uk.yachtworld.com=

And this is Gorgeous..... full keel to boot but plain interior... love the open topdeck tho...
1966 Pearson Countess Ketch-New Price Sail New and Used Boats for Sale=
Sorry mate... enjoying looking at boats I'll never afford...lmao

Hmmm interesting...one is right down the street from home...

Aaaah the rudders: not concerned about it coming off on its own without hitting anything....just concerned that whilst maneuvering to a good dive spot or anchorage that I in my infinite greenness will knock it off!

So good you guys agree (so far) those westerlys are tough in blue water.

With that in mind I may try and work a deal on the Corsair I transported (he was interested in selling it)...but if I do then Crumudgeon's math will be in FULL effect. It will need refitting from stem to stern. So to try and price it and not end up being better off with the "intact" but expensive ones will require very careful calculations on my part.

The guy decided to move it from where he bought it 2 years earlier (houston) .
He left at night with one experienced sailor, one novice, and he himself a novice. They hit nasty weather and everyone got over exposed and were reduced to shivering below. And the GPS went out. They somehow lucked into a marina the next day with no charts or GPS as I understand it (not another for 80 miles in either direction). They came coasting into the slip (motor died as they were pulling up). End result: In addition to the already deteriorated state of the boat from neglect in the Houston sun for 2-4 years, they had a good gouge in the hull and sails tattered (along with egos) from the storm.

So as best I can see: 1. much electrical wiring and many electrical components need replacing (mostly to do with engine instrumentation and power management...hate the elec panel and engine instruments, even if they worked they just suck), 2. top and 3. bottom need to be completely redone, 4. headliner needs ripping out, 5. all running rigging needs replacing, 6. needs new sails, 7. needs ground tackle, 8. needs new dodger and bim (shredded from storm), 9. and needs proper GPS, 10. needs proper radios (VHF and SSB), 11. at some point mast likely needs re-wiring (all lights did work but given the state of the rest...), 12. shaft bearings drippy, 13. all hatches are garbage, 14. some trouble spots on deck and some things look like they need rebedding, 15? and the engine...hmmm, well it might be ok if all peripherals are sorted (no smoke and ran strong and I really pushed it)....but I just don't like it, probly cuz I did battle with it for 3 days and I have a personal gripe with it (volvo)...sort of partial to kubota or yanmar variants for some reason....

Plumbing seems ok and running rigging looked perfect believe it or not...other than headliner, the interior is pretty mint.

I told the guy if i were to buy it it would be in the 20k range figuring 30k and my "sweat equity" would put me in a fine 60k-70k boat for around 50k. Of course he did not jump at that...he prolly bought it 2 years earlier somewhere in the 50's??? So hard pill to swallow...

Now that I write it all down I am probably better off just seeing the more intact examples I posted and negotiating a really good price with cash in hand. ...but without seeing them in person or knowing what they can really be had for I am still pondering the wrecked one. I mean it is quite possible I work my ass off for 6 months and end up at the same expenditure anyway

Oh, and I found a couple year old add for this very boat (Audacious)! Internet is a cool thing...as best I can guess it had one owner between this guy and the current owner....and by the looks of it neither did anything with it. Check this out:
Audacious - Westerly 36

If you look carefully this boat and I were living in the same place only a few years back!