Newbie refit question

[Medved]

Hi all, I finally found my starter boat, which is a 1988 Catalina C34 Tall Rig with wing keel. My offer has been accepted and I am getting survey done in few weeks. This boat will need few things, such as new sails, running rigging, windlass, chart plotter, etc. There is a boat yard right by the docs where this vessel is, so called them up to get some pricing. The guy I talked to said that he can give me prices for the parts, but not the labor. He said that it will be billed $100 an hour per person based on how much time they spend. This being my first refit and new to the sailboats in general... Is this normal to do projects without knowing what it will cost at the end?

[Sailing August]

Don't do anything until you have agreed IN WRITING on an exact scope of supply with and agreed process for change orders.
A hand shake or verbal agreement means NOTHING.
Keep it simple. Define the scope of supply for each job. Don't execute a new job until the existing job is finished, accepted and financially settled.
These boat yards will absolutely rob you if you do not do your do diligence. If the boat yard owner will only work informally....then go somewhere else.
$100 an hour is not unusual.
DO NOT GIVE THESE GUYS A BLANK CHECK....They will bleed you to death.

[psk125]

Have them price out each upgrade (e.g.: windlass, chart plotter...) by itself. Ask for an estimate (as August suggests - IN WRITING) of how many hours it should take and agree not to exceed that amount. That way you can stop them if it takes longer than it should, and find out why it took 3 hours to drill a 3/8" hole in the deck for a bolt. Why do you need new running rigging? Has the color in the sheets faded??? Try using it a few times before switching it out. You may find that it's stiff from non-use, but otherwise in fine shape. Don't pay the yard to bend on the sails. They might put them on upside down. You (and perhaps the sailmaker) should do that. It IS important to know what the end cost will be, and to keep it within bounds.

[George_SD]

Privet Medved!

Congrats on getting a starter boat - that's exciting.

A couple of things
1) i hope you are getting a sweet deal on the vessel, all those items you need fixed/upgraded/added will cost good money, in fact they can cost as much as half the boat price. My ballpark guesstimate on the items you've mentioned is about $7-9K depending on what and where you get. This is not a cheap hobby.
2) if you are at all handy - you can save a lot of money by doing the work yourself. It's not that complicated, as long as you have or can get some basic tools, know how to read manuals and ask questions on forums (checkmark on this one!).
3) $100/hour is about average - not cheap and not expensive. Some specialty trades like marine electrician, rigging specialist, etc can cost way more. Those who do typical basic work (fiberglass repairs, washing, simple mechanical) often charge a bit less.
4) keeping the boat in the yard and paying them for parts and labor is going to end up costing you a lot. I would suggest having them do things that you absolutely can't do by yourself and in the water (thruhulls, bottom paint, below the water line repairs, etc). Everything else you can probably do by yourself and in the water, so you don't have to pay yard fees.
5) educate yourself about the boats prior to survey. My surveyor missed a lot. From non-working water heater, to sail condition (was worse than stated and needed repair), to electrical updates not to code, etc.
6) where are you located? There are often other yard and options. You may be able to find a good marine handyman who will be more efficient or cheaper. On the other hand, the yard may give you some warranty on their work.
7) as others said - try to get something in writing and make sure the yard is reputable.


To me - it's NOT normal to not know the cost for a project, which is why I either hire someone to get a specific job done and negotiate the details, or do it myself. If anyone is going to screw it up, I don't want to be the guy I paid to get the job done.

Since I've bought our first boat about 6 months ago, this is a partial list of things I have done so far:
- gel coat repairs
- fiberglass work
- rig tuning
- polishing, waxing, washing, etc
- electrical wiring
- installed new autopilot
- installed new chart plotter
- installed fishfinder sonar
- installed new breakers, switches, fuses
- repaired and updated plumbing
- replaced below the waterline thruhull in the water
- replaced valves
- replaced hoses
- reconditioned teak
- fixed propane line/plumbing
- fixed mechanical controls
- removed and cleaned the fuel tank
- installed inline fuel pump for priming
- replaced battery
- re-crimped main battery connections
- replaced main and secondary fuel filters
- replaced rode and anchor
- reconditioned an old anchor
- replaced half of the running rigging
- washed some of the remaining running rigging (helps to keep it longer instead of replacing)
- replaced all lights with LEDs
- added a NMEA2000/SeatalkNG network
- installed new fridge gasket
- added battery volt meter, USB charging plug
- refurbished Navpod at binnacle
- cleaned speed/depth/temp sensor
- replaced gasket and wheel on speed sensor
- cleaned scoop thruhull on the outside
- labeled controls and switches
- took down jib for repair by a loft
- cleaned and lubricated most of standing/running rigging components
- add all of the needed safety gear
- add all of the fun stuff to the boat
- added fishing rod holders

The only things i paid for so far
- sailing lessons
- sail repair
- hardware needed for the projects above
- tools i needed to get the job done
- bottom cleaning and zinc replacement (would do it myself if it wasn't winter and our water not being very clear)

I still have a lot to do, but I wouldn't be able to afford the boat if I had to pay someone to do all this.

[Medved]

Originally Posted by George_SD

Privet Medved!

Congrats on getting a starter boat - that's exciting.

A couple of things
1) i hope you are getting a sweet deal on the vessel, all those items you need fixed/upgraded/added will cost good money, in fact they can cost as much as half the boat price. My ballpark guesstimate on the items you've mentioned is about $7-9K depending on what and where you get. This is not a cheap hobby.
2) if you are at all handy - you can save a lot of money by doing the work yourself. It's not that complicated, as long as you have or can get some basic tools, know how to read manuals and ask questions on forums (checkmark on this one!).
3) $100/hour is about average - not cheap and not expensive. Some specialty trades like marine electrician, rigging specialist, etc can cost way more. Those who do typical basic work (fiberglass repairs, washing, simple mechanical) often charge a bit less.
4) keeping the boat in the yard and paying them for parts and labor is going to end up costing you a lot. I would suggest having them do things that you absolutely can't do by yourself and in the water (thruhulls, bottom paint, below the water line repairs, etc). Everything else you can probably do by yourself and in the water, so you don't have to pay yard fees.
5) educate yourself about the boats prior to survey. My surveyor missed a lot. From non-working water heater, to sail condition (was worse than stated and needed repair), to electrical updates not to code, etc.
6) where are you located? There are often other yard and options. You may be able to find a good marine handyman who will be more efficient or cheaper. On the other hand, the yard may give you some warranty on their work.
7) as others said - try to get something in writing and make sure the yard is reputable.


To me - it's NOT normal to not know the cost for a project, which is why I either hire someone to get a specific job done and negotiate the details, or do it myself. If anyone is going to screw it up, I don't want to be the guy I paid to get the job done.

Since I've bought our first boat about 6 months ago, this is a partial list of things I have done so far:
- gel coat repairs
- fiberglass work
- rig tuning
- polishing, waxing, washing, etc
- electrical wiring
- installed new autopilot
- installed new chart plotter
- installed fishfinder sonar
- installed new breakers, switches, fuses
- repaired and updated plumbing
- replaced below the waterline thruhull in the water
- replaced valves
- replaced hoses
- reconditioned teak
- fixed propane line/plumbing
- fixed mechanical controls
- removed and cleaned the fuel tank
- installed inline fuel pump for priming
- replaced battery
- re-crimped main battery connections
- replaced main and secondary fuel filters
- replaced rode and anchor
- reconditioned an old anchor
- replaced half of the running rigging
- washed some of the remaining running rigging (helps to keep it longer instead of replacing)
- replaced all lights with LEDs
- added a NMEA2000/SeatalkNG network
- installed new fridge gasket
- added battery volt meter, USB charging plug
- refurbished Navpod at binnacle
- cleaned speed/depth/temp sensor
- replaced gasket and wheel on speed sensor
- cleaned scoop thruhull on the outside
- labeled controls and switches
- took down jib for repair by a loft
- cleaned and lubricated most of standing/running rigging components
- add all of the needed safety gear
- add all of the fun stuff to the boat
- added fishing rod holders

The only things i paid for so far
- sailing lessons
- sail repair
- hardware needed for the projects above
- tools i needed to get the job done
- bottom cleaning and zinc replacement (would do it myself if it wasn't winter and our water not being very clear)

I still have a lot to do, but I wouldn't be able to afford the boat if I had to pay someone to do all this.

Thank you. This is very helpful. I am choosing to pay for someone to do the work, because a) I can afford it and want to be done by professionals; and b) I want to spend time sailing instead of taking a year to do this myself, as I have a very demanding full time job

[Medved]

Another decision I am trying to make is whether to do the full refit now or sail it for a season and then do big projects. Here is the list I came up with so far that I could possibly split:

This year:
Standing and running rigging with blocks, chain plates, turnbuckles, clutches, boom break, double line reefing, and sails configured for Single handing
Service winches
Genoa Pole
Bottom paint
Steering mechanism service or replacement
gel coat conditioning
keel bolts serviced and through hulls and seacocks*checked/replaced
Impeller, filters, oil and transmission fluid change and engine wire harness

Next year:
Windlass with chain counter and controls from the cockpit*https://c34.org/wikiwp/?rdp_we_resou...or_Anchor_Well
Rocna or Mantus anchor with rope and chain (may require bow roller replacement)
AC*https://c34.org/projects/projects-ai...tioning-2.html
Bow sprit for Code 0 and Spinnaker/Gennaker
Electric Winch for the Main
Chart plotter + AIS (maybe) + wind angle/speed meter + radar (maybe)Hatches, port lights replacement
Dodger
Folding prop + rope cutter
Direct drive shaft and bearings
Lifelines
Grill

[JoeRobertJr]

Originally Posted by Medved

Another decision I am trying to make is whether to do the full refit now or sail it for a season and then do big projects. Here is the list I came up with so far that I could possibly split:
...
Grill

I found that using my boat a few times significantly changed the priorities of items on the To Do list. I did make sure the critical safety issues were addressed before first launch.

[flee27]

Medved. To comment on your statement about wanting professionals to do the work. Be sure you do your due diligence and actually end up hiring a "professional" to do your work. As with all things I hire out I find it hard to find vendors that truly have the skill and give-a-dam required to do the job.

Good luck with you boat and your projects.

Foster

[Medved]

Originally Posted by flee27

Medved. To comment on your statement about wanting professionals to do the work. Be sure you do your due diligence and actually end up hiring a "professional" to do your work. As with all things I hire out I find it hard to find vendors that truly have the skill and give-a-dam required to do the job.

Good luck with you boat and your projects.

Foster

This is precisely why I am starting with a cheaper boat, instead of spending 300-400K on a new one. There is so much for me to learn. I am bringing a mindset that may not reflect reality in the world of sailing At the minimum I am meeting with multiple vendors and getting multiple quotes, as well as, reading google reviews for what its worth.

[George_SD]

Originally Posted by Medved

Another decision I am trying to make is whether to do the full refit now or sail it for a season and then do big projects. Here is the list I came up with so far that I could possibly split:

This year:
Standing and running rigging with blocks, chain plates, turnbuckles, clutches, boom break, double line reefing, and sails configured for Single handing
Service winches
Genoa Pole
Bottom paint
Steering mechanism service or replacement
gel coat conditioning
keel bolts serviced and through hulls and seacocks*checked/replaced
Impeller, filters, oil and transmission fluid change and engine wire harness

Next year:
Windlass with chain counter and controls from the cockpit*https://c34.org/wikiwp/?rdp_we_resou...or_Anchor_Well
Rocna or Mantus anchor with rope and chain (may require bow roller replacement)
AC*https://c34.org/projects/projects-ai...tioning-2.html
Bow sprit for Code 0 and Spinnaker/Gennaker
Electric Winch for the Main
Chart plotter + AIS (maybe) + wind angle/speed meter + radar (maybe)Hatches, port lights replacement
Dodger
Folding prop + rope cutter
Direct drive shaft and bearings
Lifelines
Grill

I would say for sure use it first, then decide. When I was buying, i had one list of priorities. The list changed significantly after i bought it and used it some.

There are maintenance items that will need to be done regardless, so do those (Especially if they don't require haul-out or other expensive accommodations).

For example: things like steering, thruhulls and seacocks should be serviced right away if there is a need. Windlass, anchor (as long as you have a usable one), extra sails, dodger, folding prop, etc - can wait a bit until you get a chance to use and think about those a bit.

Things like replacing lights ( i assume with LED instead of incandescent) is quick, easy, low cost and you can do without waiting or hiring someone. Just pop the bulb out, put the new one in (unless you are talking about navigation lights, in which case that's more complicated than replacing the bulb). Same with installing a grill - 5 minute job with off-the-shelf quick mount hardware.

Welcome to boat-ownership, all the fun and headaches of it

[Knotical]

Medved, like you and others here I wanted to replace and upgrade everything when I bought the boat however, after I used it for some time I focused on essential things first and made a priority list. My first year with the boat I replaced the toilet and plumbing, removed and cleaned holding tank, removed and cleaned all Spartan seacocks, replaced speed and depth transducers (old ones were nonfunctional), serviced steering and rudder assembly, tightened keel bolts, washed running rigging, and fixed a few leaks.

Stuff that I got done by others were rigging inspection, bottom paint, sail service, I also had a “professional” change oil and filter on the engine as it was all new to me and he charged me $300 for labor! I know you can afford to pay pros to do the work but take the above into consideration, not all pros are ethical and efficient, and not all yard workers are pros, I personally know of 2 boats at my yard that nearly sunk because of yard workers’ mistakes, one moved his boat promptly and sued the yard. Boat ownership can be fun or expensive, it can’t be both.

[Knotical]

One more thing, you don’t need to involve the yard for any work related to sails, just find a local sailmaker who will do the alterations for you. A lot of sailmakers are sailors themselves and will advise you on rigging upgrades that you want and then you can hire someone to install/remove hardware, etc. (if you don’t want to do it yourself).

[Medved]

Originally Posted by Knotical

One more thing, you don’t need to involve the yard for any work related to sails, just find a local sailmaker who will do the alterations for you. A lot of sailmakers are sailors themselves and will advise you on rigging upgrades that you want and then you can hire someone to install/remove hardware, etc. (if you don’t want to do it yourself).

Thank you for advice. Boat needs both new sails and new running rigging, and I want to make changes to single hand, so have to get a rigger to change things around. I am planning to do a survey after projects are done to avoid what you are warning about