Newer, Lighter or Older, Heavier

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Weyalan

I'd love that. Unfortunately current plans / budgetary constraints preclude significant overseas trips for the foreseeable future.

My preference for lighter boats is not necessarily a criticism of heavier boats, more a case of "devil you know"... I learned to sail on racing boats. So I am more familiar with their strengths / weaaknesses and general caprices than I am with the older heavier designs.

I was merely pointing out that the often held belief that newer lighter boats are not as strong as older heavier boats is not necessarily the case. I'm sure that there are production boats that are built for charter-fleet day sailing (with the idea that they will have paid for themselves in 3-4 years of chartering) that are light and flimsy, but this mentality is only a small portion of the modern boat market. Not that my boat is particularly new (early 80's), but it's hull & decks are a combination of fibreglass and kevlar, and I think it is pretty strong.

To be 100% honest, I'm not too fussy about what I sail on, provided I have a dry bunk and enough breeze to get it going under sail...

Your like me Weyalan, lot and lots of miles racing, not sure how many miles cruising or making deliveries. Doesn't matter.

Don't get me wrong I very much like a light boat, dinghy or keel but there is something to be said for a heavier boat. With enough rocker and V they ride softly and still turn in a fair bit of speed. Marching to weather in 45 knots and big waves with two deep reefs, a 45% on the inner forestay while the ap drives can't be easily done on the lighter boat.

Fair winds

Joli

Oh, how is the refit going?

[Weyalan]

Originally Posted by Joli

Your like me Weyalan, lot and lots of miles racing, not sure how many miles cruising or making deliveries. Doesn't matter.

Don't get me wrong I very much like a light boat, dinghy or keel but there is something to be said for a heavier boat. With enough rocker and V they ride softly and still turn in a fair bit of speed. Marching to weather in 45 knots and big waves with two deep reefs, a 45% on the inner forestay while the ap drives can't be easily done on the lighter boat.

Fair winds

Joli

Oh, how is the refit going?

Yeah - I still have plenty more racing / racing delivery miles under my belt than crusing miles, and it shows. I wouldn't necessarily mind a heavier / more comfortable craft, but hereabouts, old racing boats are cheaper, and I am not a wealthy man, so the coat is cut according to the cloth...

At the risk of derailing the thread (mods feel free to wield the mod-stick if necessary), the refit is going fine, but a lot slower than scheduled, because we are spending too much time sailing and not enough re-fitting!

Tomorrow, Lisa & I are going away for a couple of weeks of cruising: Down the d'Entrecasteaux Channel, Recherche Bay, possibly Port Davey, maybe Fortescue Bay, Maria Island, Freycinet... depending on wind, weather and how we feel on any given day. We have a lobster pot, 3 scuba tanks (scallop season about to open), fishing gear and plenty of grog...

Between that and plenty of (low key) racing, its hardly any wonder that refit is taking longer than planned.

After the cruise and 2 or 3 multi-day regattas in March / early April, we are back into work mode, including pulling the mast out for repainting, rewiring and new lights & wind instruments, fitting anchor winch, building anchor locker / chain locker, fit holding tan, new head... the list goes on!

I'm pretty sure that the boat is still actually lighter than when I bought it though!

[CharlieCobra]

Originally Posted by slomotion

I guess I didn't make myself clear:

Mopars blow the doors off Ford and Chevy.

Well, I guess a Chevy 409 is pretty cool - don't want you to think I have a strong opinion or anything.

Hmm, my '03 11 second Cobra might argue that point and I know the '70 Chevelle in the garage running 8.30's surely would.

[GreyRaven]

Another great thread.

If I only wanted to spend around $ 60 K to do some serious coastal sailing I would also go for older, perhaps heavier and nonetheless get the biggest boat I can afford. There are still a lot of older and excellent boats out there, which have been kept in excellent condition. I’d go for one of those.

Whatever my choice, I’d have a complete condition and valuation survey done and if any doubts remained, I’d also have the engine and the electrics surveyed separately. If the boat passes, then there is a good chance that initial repairs can be kept at a minimum. The Pearson 365 looks good but even the Catalina 34 looks like it would be fun to sail.

I suppose that I’m partial against boats like the Beneteau but over here in the Mediterranean they’re usually used as “charter bombers” and feel like floating yoghurt cups. Same goes for the Oceanis line. I guess I’m sort of old fashioned. For a really tough, fast boat which providesgood sailing performance and quite satisfactory accommodation for two to four adults, I’d take a German Dehler 34 or 36 any day.

There are still some older ones around in the above mentioned price range.

[slomotion]

Originally Posted by CharlieCobra

Hmm, my '03 11 second Cobra might argue that point and I know the '70 Chevelle in the garage running 8.30's surely would.

I had a '69 Plymouth Road Runner 440 that ran 11.5s. Best for the '72 Duster 340 was 12.28. Anything that runs 8.30 is either supercharged or not street legal.

[Ex-Calif]

Well - I just found a hidden cove with 12 Beneteaus in it. I was gonna give them away to the members on this thread but seeing as no one likes yoghurt cups, I'll haffta keep 'em...

[GreyRaven]

LOL!

I’m sure it was the other way around, Dan - you found a cove and there were 12 Beneteaus hiding in it.

Imagine, now you have one for each day of the week, with a different flavour each day. On alternate weeks you can enjoy the more exotic ones such as Beneteau-Müsli, Beneteau-Mango or Beneteau-Kiwi.


Fair winds!

[S/V Elusive]

Hummmm... a bit of topic drift in two directions! Shall we center up?

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by GreyRaven

LOL!

I’m sure it was the other way around, Dan - you found a cove and there were 12 Beneteaus hiding in it.

Gawd Bless GPS

[slomotion]

Well, here’s something I hadn’t thought about before. There may be a curious sort of linkage between cruisers and car enthusiasts.

I don’t have any statistics, but when we went cruising it 'seemed' that there was an unusually high percentage of people who had restored old cars; owned real sports cars, muscle cars, antiques; done amateur racing; been auto mechanics, etc. What they all had in common was that they had (post adolescence) driven cars just for fun.

When I lived in New England I drove sports cars - real ones like MGs, Triumphs, Fiats. The country was hilly and the roads had lots of curves. Often I drove my cars just for fun. When we moved to central Florida, I got into muscle cars. The country is flat and the roads are straight. Mostly, I drove my muscle cars just for fun.

When you go cruising, you meet people with an amazing diversity of backgrounds and experiences. Some of them have been sailing in one form or another for years; others knew nothing about sailboats until they decided that cruising would be a fun thing to do and learned to sail as part of making the dream come true. All of them had had fun sailing, and all of them had sailed just for fun. When we were getting ready to go cruising, we sailed just about every other day for 2 months. It was fun and we enjoyed it. But, we did more sailing in those two months than we did in the next 6 months in the Bahamas.

Cruisers don’t sail just for fun. I have never seen a cruiser up anchor, go out for a day sail, and come back. That doesn’t mean that they don’t enjoy sailing. It’s just that sailing isn’t what cruising is all about. In the Bahamas/Caribbean 90 % of the time cruisers are anchored. When they go sailing, it’s because they want to go somewhere else and conditions are favorable. But, part of the reason that they are cruising in the first place is that they used to sail or maybe drive just for fun.


P.S. I don’t pretend to know what it is about driving cool cars that might attract people to cruising on sailboats (some of them even like Frauds and Chebbies!), but at least it’s clear that Mopars are the best muscle cars and newer light weight mass production boats are the best Bahamas/Caribbean cruisers.

[imagine2frolic]

COWBOY.....

Looks like you have had a fulfilling, and interesting life.............

[Tspringer]

I didnt catch if your plans included living aboard full time while coastal cruising or not?

If you are not going to have a land base and if your cruising is going to be coastal and in no hurry so that picking weather windows is fine and long passages are rare if ever... why buy a boat designed to do what your not looking to do?

I would suggest you go larger and lighter. Something in the 38 to 40 ft range with more interior space. A Hunter or Benny or Catalina.... the newest and largest you can find in great shape in your price range.

Yes... contrary to the popular conception of buying a smaller, very heavy cruiser capable to withstanding a southern ocean gale....

But if your living aboard full time and you want a happy wife and you realize your not looking for hard core blue water cruising and long passages then why not buy a boat designed to do exactly what your looking to do? Its just my opinion (worth what you pay for it) but buying a boat that is focused on being excellent at what your going to spend 10% or less of your time doing doesnt make a ton of sense. Buy a boat that will be the best for what you will spend 90% of your time doing: at anchor. This is particularly true given that you are not planning blue water cruising where safety would dictate that you need to sacrifice the 90% desire to the 10% capability.



Terry

[Ex-Calif]

Well said, Terry.

If I were crossing a major ocean I would definitely go big heavy and proven. Most of us (sailors at large) will spend a short time making short crossings a longer time coastal cruising and a ton of time at anchor. Picking the weather windows in a lighter boat is a lot more important.

Regarding cruisers and cars. My impression is that the sailors are more do-it-yourselfers compared to powerboat folks. Hence the very active forums on maintenance and rebuilding.

Mucking around with cars, or anything mechanical, as a kid translates well into the skills required to maintain an old boat.

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by Tspringer

Buy a boat that will be the best for what you will spend 90% of your time doing: at anchor. This is particularly true given that you are not planning blue water cruising where safety would dictate that you need to sacrifice the 90% desire to the 10% capability.



Terry

Good advice, Terry. I agree with you 100% on getting a boat that suits what the buyer is doing 90% of the time or greater. If you aren't crossing any oceans, then you don't need an ocean crosser. Terry's advice is definitely the right way to go about it.

However, I'd just like to point out that a heavy, strong boat *is* better at anchor. Small and cramped ocean crossers get tired real fast at anchor, but a large, heavy boat will sit at anchor just like a little piece of land, keeping you happy, while other bob all around in the storms and wakes. Remember - a large heavy boat doesn't have to be small.

For instance, I don't advise to go Hunter, but if you were sticking to that brand, you would want that offshore 49 model mentioned earlier. Why? Because she's big and roomy and nice, but also because she's heavy and will sit there nicely when the anchorage goes from pristine to hellish (storms and wakes). Yes... storms *do* happen in anchorages!

Remember - this advice (worth as much as Terry said his is... ha ha) is coming from a guy who has lived aboard at anchor with his wife full time with no marinas at anchor for 2.5 years and is getting back aboard next week. (except in mid winter when at a dock freezing my butt off)

Our 26,000 lbs helped keep us sleeping well through the roughest of weather in the anchorage, not crossing oceans.

[Janny]

Gee this is another fun thread, I can't wait to see what you find, Cowboy. 'Looking' at several (40+ ?) boats sure made up our minds, sturdy is good. We have the time to fix ours, but you don't. You never know what you may fall in love with ... until she sees the galley and bed
Good luck and keep us posted!