Not Another Post! (Canadian/UK Citizens Buying in Med)

[LTshaw]

I'm hesitant to throw another "I want to buy a boat in the Mediterranean and sail to Australia/around the world" post up on these forums, because lets' not kid ourselves, there seems to be quite a few variations of this already.

However, after two years of saving, sailing and planning, I'm finally within one year of leaving my job/house behind, but realize that I don't have enough understanding of the intricacies of purchasing in the Med as a Canadian/UK citizen - and could really use some advice on the broker/financing/registering/insurance front.

A little background. I grew up racing dinghies, then transitioned to keel boats only recently. My wife and I sail on a Shark 24, but also both race as crew on a couple other bigger boats 3 times a week. She didn't have much experience when starting out, but has turned out to be a very diligent and intelligent sailor.

She's from the UK, still has property there, but is now a Canadian resident for the past 5 years. I have dual citizenship, but never lived in the UK.

We're planning on heading to the Med (Italy/Greece/Croatia/Turkey) early in 2023, but could leave as late as Fall 2023.

Before we get to my questions that I'm really hoping you can all help me with; if you're rolling your eyes because this is the umpteenth post you've seen, perhaps you could be so kind as to just provide links to other posts, blogs, videos, websites or whatever you think would help me, and I'll get to work.

Finding/Getting a Broker/Surveyor?:
We've identified quite a few boats on websites like Yachtworld which meet our requirements. Not opposed to buying a charter boat since we intend to do quite a lot of work refitting before doing any serious sailing.

• Should I be contacting a bunch of brokers to help me find the boats, set up visits and do other broker things? Or contacting just the boats I find online and manage setting up all the visits myself, including the survey, etc. I feel like maybe having a broker (or two) work with us as a partner on this would be beneficial.

• Second part is just about finding a surveyor you can trust. If I was in Greece, I'd have no idea who to find. Basically I'd be doing a Google search. I feel like a good broker would help here, but not sure best course of action.

Buying/Financing the Boat
We've got about 100k in cash, but had thought about potentially financing another 25-50k for the right boat.

• How do we find a financial institution to finance a small part of the boat? Is it best to do that in Canada, the UK, or find an institution in the EU? Most of the local finance I've found is only for boats purchased in Canada.

• Are there any major cons to financing a small portion? I've heard insurance can be more pricey (requirement for hull insurance), but we've set aside quite a big budget for this already. Is it like 2x, 3x, 10x what insurance would be on a boat we own outright?

• Where do we register the boat and does it matter for tax or insurance purposes? I assume since we're both dual citizens that we could do it from either country?

Insuring the Boat

• Do I need to find an insurance company in the Med, or again, find one first in Canada/UK?

• Is there a better time to start the insurance? Do I only need to update it to "crossing the Atlantic" from "sailing in the Med" when the time comes, or from day 1 should I be declaring that, if it makes a difference.

That was cathartic. I just shared my (and probably most people's) major anxieties to executing a plan like this.

Thanks for everything CruisersForum, you guys have already helped us tremendously, here's to hoping some of you can help me dig into these last crucial items!

[goboatingnow]

If the boat is listed by a broker contact the broker , you do not contact the owner. Typically in Greece for a given “ sailing area “ there will be a few brokers

Using a purchaser broker is unusual in Europe but in effect after you have contacted a few brokers you can maintain contact

Consider visiting the key boating areas to physically tour the boats for sale.

The broker in an area can give you a list of surveyors who will work in your potential purchase areA, there will not be many to choose from usually two or three at most , you can also use the U.K. YBDSA website to locate small boat surveyors .

You can also “ ask around “ the boat owners in the purchase area for a broker recommendation. The chandleries will help here too. ( ask here on CF as some of us are based in these cruising areas )

You will not arrange finance except through finance houses based on where you live and reside. As ( I take it ) your are Canadian resident you’d have to start in Canada. Financing a boat abroad is not easy.

Again insurance is a function of your residency and the boats intended sailing ground , start first in Canada , typically to save money you limit insurance to your intended sailing area ,if that changes you go back to your insurer

Flag registration is up to you , you can register it in any flag state that legally allows you. U.K. part 1 ( not SSR) is available by electing an agent. Polish registry is available and so would Canadian presumably

Clearly you are aware of the 90 ( out of 180 ) day stay limits for you and your wife in the EU /Schengen area

[mglomstead]

Regarding surveyors, I’ve seen multiple mentions of named surveyors by location on social media. Try searching the European sailing groups with the word “surveyor”. Fair winds.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by mglomstead

Regarding surveyors, I’ve seen multiple mentions of named surveyors by location on social media. Try searching the European sailing groups with the word “surveyor”. Fair winds.

Getting surveyors at present is difficult getting them to travel is almost impossible and expensive

The best bet is when you are ready to survey , ask the brokers in the area for a list of nearby surveyors fluent in your language different nationalities of buyers use different surveyors as typically the client wants a survey in his native language ( though English is the most common “ Lingua Franca”)

[LTshaw]

Lots of great info here, thank you.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Clearly you are aware of the 90 ( out of 180 ) day stay limits for you and your wife in the EU /Schengen area

We are aware of this and is definitely going to be a challenge as we move from country to country around the Mediterranean, in and out of the Schengen area. There's obviously no way to skirt this, but it may be worth a sperate post to hear how others have done it legally.

[spaman]

The broker for any particular boat might not recommend a truly independent surveyor. I have used William Walsh of Walsh Marine in Greece twice and I am aware of a number of others that have used him. Very thorough and professional, but not cheap. He will also travel outside of Greece if required. I have no hesitation in recommending him.

[RobertL]

I concur with William Walsh as an excellent, very thorough surveyor. Used him on our Steel Motiva 39.

[LTshaw]

This has really helped get the ball rolling, thanks everyone for your input!

[Shrew]

Please do yourself a favor.......Broker, Surveyor, Financing and Insurance are 4 completely unrelated topics. Keeping the scope of a thread to a single topic will garner more replies and not cause the thread to devolve into a written version of the tower of babble.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by spaman

The broker for any particular boat might not recommend a truly independent surveyor. I have used William Walsh of Walsh Marine in Greece twice and I am aware of a number of others that have used him. Very thorough and professional, but not cheap. He will also travel outside of Greece if required. I have no hesitation in recommending him.

Brokers will , if asked typically provide a list of the surveyors that will operate in the area the boat is. They usually have this list typed up. Brokers have little motivation in screwing around with surveyors as word of mouth will kill their reputation.

These days getting surveyors to travel is very expensive and time consuming and my view is one surveyor is as good as others. Personally I survey my own boats and the surveyors is purely for insurance.

I’ve seen highly recommended surveyors miss flaws that actually got picked up by the selling broker !!

Most surveyors are very keen not to be seen as partisan to a given broker as this kills their reputation and stops them getting work.

In Greece surveyors are like hens teeth at the moment and the cost and inconvienence of getting them to travel is a PITA , hence you’ll likely end up choosing from one or two in the general area the boat is in

[azul_b]

As a happy 10 year owner of an ex charter yacht in Greece (35ft) I would say don't bother with a refit until after a season or two in the med. Step aboard and sail and then you will know what you need and maybe refit during winter.

Coming out of charter boat usually have an exit survey so I did not have separate purchase survey.

Don't finance - you will find something you can afford.

[NorthPacific]

Hi
I am a Canadian (ex brit) Just bought a boat in Greece. Beware all brokers are not the same. One asked me for a bribe!! The one I have just bought the boat from has been very upfront. Insurance has been a pain.

Residency is the main the thing. I have been unable to find a Canadian company. Be careful with some of the Interweb ones, They are not what they claim.

I have a UK company called Topsail. No idea if they are a good company
A New Zealand outfit called Marine Shop are seeking underwriters for my boat at this time.

Emails are fine but if its a good boat these covid times it is a sellers market and they sell quick. Find a broker call and discuss what you want.

After coming up short a few times beaten to the punch by days a day and hours, I told a broker the brand size condition I wanted. I was in a sulk when he informed me the boat I was after had again sold. So I was very specific. I was sat on a friends boat the day after looking at "an Ocean ready Boat " that was in the worst condition I have ever seen when I got an email from this broker. He sent me the spec sheets survey the day it arrived from the seller. I offered and it was accepted before it hit the web.

I maybe paid a little more, but I got the boat I wanted with more add ons and quality stuff than I could have dreamed about. Not meant as a brag but you can not be placid. I spent 100's of hours scouring the web. So in 2 months off to sail the med then anyplace we decided we want to go next.

Now I have 2 holes in the water to pour my money into.LOL