Oceanis 485 steering failure

[unclemack]

Originally Posted by Mark Killam

OK It is Mystery, not mistery, circumstances, not citcunstances. I cannot defend all Beneteau's but lets face it, by shear numbers there are a lot of them out there, a lot of them cruising, and a lot of them doing just fine. La Vagabond a 435 (they did have rudder problems in episode 3) Liz Copeland wrote a number of books on a circumnavigation she did on a B38 with her husband and two kids. I have got 10 of thousands miles on mine with no issue. By almost everyone's ones own admission they were the number one charter boat for years racking up thousands of days at sea many times with a crew that was not too experienced. I would expect that statistically we would be seeing a lot more problems then we are. Maybe they aren't rated for crossing oceans (but I think they are) but then either were the outriggers that the Polynesians used to travel to distant islands.
I hope this is not the Neil Pryde that built my sails because you were recommended by Beneteau USA . I can't believe this thread is going on so long. I can't believe I finally got drawn into this silly debate. Can't we all just sail.

I think criticising other contributors' use of English is a poor show in an International forum but... the word you meant to use is spelled "sheer" not "shear"..."let's face it" not "lets"...

No need to "defend all Beneteaus" (no apostrophe needed)... no-one is attacking them, just criticising that particular arrangement of rudder "support" structure.

A sinking makes news - most owners will notice the clunking sounds before disaster and have the problem repaired.

Non-disclosure agreements forced upon those repairers by Beneteau don't give you pause for thought?
You don't accept that failures might be going unreported because Beneteau's bean counters choose to maintain profits by forcing repairers to conceal the truth despite the possible loss of life?

I regard non-disclosure clauses as being as much a crime as conspiracy or fraud despite what the law may say.

"... either were the outriggers that the Polynesians used to travel to distant islands".... it's OK, I knew you meant "neither"...
I suspect Polynesian voyagers would think that rudder arrangement as ridiculously under-specified as do I and many other competent engineers on this forum.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

...
As to your denial of the relevance of families relying on such boats for their safety in transoceanic and remote sailing, it is itself denied. Your words are DIRECTLY relevant, as they may indeed influence the decision making of a pair of adults with children in accepting such bearing structures and similar as being adequate for Ocean service. In that regard your words are DIRECTLY implicated in the real world. People consult these sites for guidance, you know?

Paolo, congratulations. You just hit a new low.

I really do not understand your post. Do you really believe that a 45ft Oceanis not to mention a 55ft Oceanis is not an offshore boat, one that could be sailed offshore safely on the right season? or does not have an adequate safety margin to cross oceans on that referred favorable season?

If that is what you mean your opinion has been contradicted on this forum by several deliver skippers that had experience sailing those boats, sometimes on conditions less favorable. Contrary to you they have experience sailing those boats.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

One thing I took away from the Cheeky report is that even some groundings which the owners consider 'soft' provide enough shock load or torque to damage the plexus glue type assemblies - no problem for your boat or for Hawk, but potentially fracture less than perfect/thicker glue bonds of structural grids and and rudder supports and such. ........

One problem with Cheeki was that it was not a owner's boat but a charter boat and the owner had only the description of the groundings given by the ones that had chartered the boat...and I bet they all would describe the groundings that they had as soft, if they tell the company at all that they had grounded the boat.

I remember a description of one of those light groundings during a race, the boat fell from the top of a wave and hit ground. I don't think that should be considered a soft grounding. Probably the worst possible effort on a keel is a vertical one when all the weight of the boat is dropped from a height on the keel.

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by Polux

I really do not understand your post. Do you really believe that a 45ft Oceanis not to mention a 55ft Oceanis is not an offshore boat, one that could be sailed offshore safely on the right season? or does not have an adequate safety margin to cross oceans on that referred favorable season?

If that is what you mean your opinion has been contradicted on this forum by several deliver skippers that had experience sailing those boats, sometimes on conditions less favorable. Contrary to you they have experience sailing those boats.

Here P i'll answer. NO not with that crap ass rudder deign. Another bene with a different rudder sure. That stupid set up you have a hard on for, absolutely not.

Oh and im still here waiting for my quote and answer to the sky question, or are you still willfully ignoring me.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Here P i'll answer. NO not with that crap ass rudder deign. Another bene with a different rudder sure. That stupid set up you have a hard on for, absolutely not.
...

As Neil has said Oceanis have the same basic rudder setup for way more than a decade. Don't know exactly when they started not using the upper bearing on the cockpit floor but Mark's boat uses already that basic design and he had circumnavigated his boat without any rudder problem that I know off .

As I have already said that set up can perfectly be built strong enough to the boat needs with those materials. It only need to be well built with correct scantlings. I don't know if on that Oceanis 48 the scantlings and building is sub standard or if that breakage had origin on lack of maintenance after groundings or even on a building defect.

Contrary to what Neil had said Benneteau did not made a recall on that boat regarding the rudder and on the past it had made Recalls for several reasons, and when it found it necessary (including rudder set up modification).

I also have already said that I don't like that design for a number of reasons but that certainly that does not mean that the similar systems used on all Oceanis line for more than a decade are not built adequately for the intended use of the boat. There are probably about 20 000 boats built with a similar rudder set up, many circumnavigated, many crossed oceans and the number of boats with problems were just a very small margin regarding the total number, fewer even the ones that sunk do to a rudder problem (2?).

I continue not to like the rudder set up and don't like particularly Beneteaus for a number of reasons but they are not very different in build quality to Jeanneaus or Dufour (Grand Large) and calling them CRAP as it has been made on this thread just does not make any sense.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Polux

I really do not understand your post. Do you really believe that a 45ft Oceanis not to mention a 55ft Oceanis is not an offshore boat, one that could be sailed offshore safely on the right season? or does not have an adequate safety margin to cross oceans on that referred favorable season?

If that is what you mean your opinion has been contradicted on this forum by several deliver skippers that had experience sailing those boats, sometimes on conditions less favorable. Contrary to you they have experience sailing those boats.

As usual you totally miss my point. Probably deliberately. But in any case, you also fail to note that I am a professional skipper myself, also "delivery skipper", race navigator/tactician, RYA Instructor, and I teach a lot on Beneteaus and Jeanneaus, as well as many other classes of vessel.

As I have said previously, including on this very thread, I like some Beneteaus a fair bit. Some are good boats, which I enjoy sailing, and as I said I teach on these mainly in the mid 50s latitude (Scotland), so frankly have more experience than most (and I am pretty damn sure more than you) of handling these boats in hard weather.

The question is about THIS PARTICULAR RUDDER STRUCTURE, and it is absolutely inadequate. I wholly deny that it is Ocean worthy in any season. Perhaps you should stop talking about Ocean sailing until you have actually sailed a few, especially in higher latitudes. Just as you should stop lecturing people about grounding boats and the effects of doing so, including the structural necessities of long range cruising vessels, until you have actually experienced sailing beyond European coastal waters…

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

...
As I have said previously, including on this very thread, I like some Beneteaus a fair bit. Some are good boats, ...

The question is about THIS PARTICULAR RUDDER STRUCTURE, and it is absolutely inadequate. I wholly deny that it is Ocean worthy in any season. Perhaps you should stop talking about Ocean sailing until you have actually sailed a few, especially in higher latitudes.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

As Neil pointed out this particular rudder structure is common to the Oceanis series. Look at the photos that he posted.

and you don't need to be rude.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Polux

As Neil pointed out this particular rudder structure is common to the Oceanis series. Look at the photos that he posted.

and you don't need to be rude.

It was you who tried to pull rank on me, mate, by proxy. Simply returning the favour, not trying to be rude. But it does get wearying hearing you constantly lecture far more experienced and wide ranging sailors and technicians on their practises, actual experience, and convictions concerning required boat design, when you yourself have not had the experience required to speak authoritatively on the subject, either at sea or in a boatyard. Your own post suggested that I listen to those who you thought had more experience in those boats and conditions than I. You were wrong, and I am merely suggesting you listen to your own suggestion. And I do agree with Neil, this structure is inadequate to the point of being a useless toy, or small lake boat at best, and the Oceanis series in that case does not deserve the name.

[sailnow2011]

No working pumps? A boat of this size, properly equipped would have no less then 4 auto pumps, and one manual with a second below decks. Modern production boats make me sick with minimal safety....

[ontherocks83]

I feel like this is where arguing in circles with Polux has led us to. I think I am at my sanity breaking point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=177z7_mEt5s

A song made about nothing just to screw with people, pretty much sums up how I feel about his stand point on any of this

[minaret]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

I feel like this is where arguing in circles with Polux has led us to. I think I am at my sanity breaking point.

A song made about nothing just to screw with people, pretty much sums up how I feel about his stand point on any of this

Don't worry, man. HE is the Walrus, not you!

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

As Neil has said Oceanis have the same basic rudder setup for way more than a decade. Don't know exactly when they started not using the upper bearing on the cockpit floor but Mark's boat uses already that basic design and he had circumnavigated his boat without any rudder problem that I know off .

As I have already said that set up can perfectly be built strong enough to the boat needs with those materials. It only need to be well built with correct scantlings. I don't know if on that Oceanis 48 the scantlings and building is sub standard or if that breakage had origin on lack of maintenance after groundings or even on a building defect.

Contrary to what Neil had said Benneteau did not made a recall on that boat regarding the rudder and on the past it had made Recalls for several reasons, and when it found it necessary (including rudder set up modification).

I also have already said that I don't like that design for a number of reasons but that certainly that does not mean that the similar systems used on all Oceanis line for more than a decade are not built adequately for the intended use of the boat. There are probably about 20 000 boats built with a similar rudder set up, many circumnavigated, many crossed oceans and the number of boats with problems were just a very small margin regarding the total number, fewer even the ones that sunk do to a rudder problem (2?).

I continue not to like the rudder set up and don't like particularly Beneteaus for a number of reasons but they are not very different in build quality to Jeanneaus or Dufour (Grand Large) and calling them CRAP as it has been made on this thread just does not make any sense.

I don't think you know the exact numbers of how many Oceanis are sailing overseas , I don't think you know the exact numbers of how many of those Oceanis are repaired, or rudder reinforced before something bad happen, is
nice to speak about numbers and margins but you need to backup those numbers with something solid.. if you don't ,,,this is just smoke in the internet...

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by monte

No bottom touches yet (touch plexus) but then maybe I'm a bit more careful than if I had a yacht built like this one
http://youtu.be/YIglL5vks4g

My new saying... Implying it's a crap shoot...

I've seen that video a long while ago... Some good hits, but my thoughts were... that some pussy took the helm for a few times with that rounding up shiznit...

Originally Posted by unclemack

A sinking makes news - most owners will notice the clunking sounds before disaster and have the problem repaired.

" Once you've heard the clunk.... You're sunk ! "

There is no.... Hmm.... We best have a look at that when we get in... or at the very least before the big sail party in two weeks...

If you're ruddershaft is floppy... there's no stoppeee.... of the incoming water, and to the bottom you will droppee...

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Here P i'll answer. NO not with that crap ass rudder deign. Another bene with a different rudder sure. That stupid set up you have a hard on for, absolutely not.

Oh and im still here waiting for my quote and answer to the sky question, or are you still willfully ignoring me.

Mostly DeepSkyBlue font color...

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

I feel like this is where arguing in circles with Polux has led us to. I think I am at my sanity breaking point.

A song made about nothing just to screw with people, pretty much sums up how I feel about his stand point on any of this

All these years I wondered how to spell coo-coo-cuchoo...

Originally Posted by minaret

Don't worry, man. HE is the Walrus, not you!

Fits the lyrics darn well !

[unclemack]

"All these years I wondered how to spell coo-coo-cuchoo..."

I think you'll find that the correct speeling is coochie, cooch for short.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

.. But it does get wearying hearing you constantly lecture far more experienced and wide ranging sailors and technicians on their practises, actual experience, and convictions concerning required boat design, when you yourself have not had the experience required to speak authoritatively on the subject, either at sea or in a boatyard. Your own post suggested that I listen to those who you thought had more experience in those boats and conditions than I. You were wrong, and I am merely suggesting you listen to your own suggestion. And I do agree with Neil, this structure is inadequate to the point of being a useless toy, or small lake boat at best, and the Oceanis series in that case does not deserve the name.

I think that it is part of the problem here. You and others that live permanently on a boat and that roam the planet doing thousands of hundreds of miles and going to badly charted remote places keep talking about main market mass production boats limitations to do what you do assuming the type of boat that will be needed for that is the type of boat that it will be needed for 99% of the sailors.

It is not, the boats designed to do that are voyage boats, stronger and much more expensive sailboats.

99% of the cruisers do not sail in remote places or badly charted waters and even the vast majority of the ones that live on the boat does not sail on those forsaken places but just in what they would call a "tropical paradise" or on the med.

The vast majority that use for considerable time a year a sailboat just keep it tight on a marina for the winter (or go home) and sail only the boat on the "sailing season" when the weather is nice and the sun is hot and the rain and cold are out of the equation.

Those are the ones that sail the boats more time, the ones that are retired, most use the boat only on weekends and during a month in the summer.

That is for what boats like the Oceanis or other mass production main market cruising boats are designed for, not excluding an Ocean passage on the right season, but not an intensive use as a voyage boat and certainly not designed to sail on high latitudes, forsaken places and uncharted waters. That does not mean that not having being designed for that, many of these boats, including Oceanis, have been used successful for much harder uses, namely circumnavigations. That is a fact, not an opinion.

In fact my experience of about 40000nm sailing on the conditions they were designed to perform seems a lot more relevant towards their adequacy to the use they were designed to perform than your experience of living aboard and use a boat as a voyage boat.

Regarding your opinion on the use of this type of boats for Ocean passages (a useless toy) I only have mentioned that you seem to think that your opinion is the only valid one. I just pointed out that several deliver skippers on this forum, that have made Ocean passages on Oceanis, had expressed different opinions, namely that those boats are adequate for doing passage on the right season. That is by far the more common opinion regarding that. And that is a fact that many Oceanis do so with very few problems, if any problem at all.

And again you are contradicting yourself: First you say that there are good Oceanis around and then when me and Neil point out that they all had basically the same rudder structure you say: "this structure is inadequate to the point of being a useless toy, or small lake boat at best"

The Beneteau is building boats for many decades, several tens of thousands sail around with this rudder structure, some have circumnavigated and if that structure was not minimally adequated to the use of the boat, most boats would give problems and they would have it modified long ago.

I don't like that rudder structure but that is a long way to saying that the boat is a toy and only proper for lake use. That statmeny seems quite ridiculous and paradigmatic regarding your vastly exaggerated views regarding this type of boats.