OLD vs NEW boats. Contradictive experts' opinion.

[Don C L]

I keep hearing about the restrictions on older boats and the difficulty in getting insurance. However my buddy with a 50 year old boat just got insurance so if I lose mine on my 60 year old boat, I think I'll be ok. And my marina hasn't yet mentioned anything about my old boat.

I don't think in terms of the age of the boat as much as the quality. I know some good boats, and not so good, from just about every decade. Certainly there are other considerations. For example the boats from the 60's had smaller interiors and were more tender which some folks don't like. And then there are the issues like blisters that showed up mostly in the 70s.

I say, like sailorboy said, find a boat in good condition that you like and then come back here and ask about it. Surely someone here will have personal experience with it and can tell you about the particular pros and cons of that model.

[Madehn]

+1 to this
I say, like sailorboy said, find a boat in good condition that you like and then come back here and ask about it. Surely someone here will have personal experience with it and can tell you about the particular pros and cons of that model.

also get a good survey- after that you tend to get what you pay for- there may be cheap high quality boats out there that go for a song but i've not seen them- In buying planes, autos, and boats in my experience, if a deal is too good then you need to dig deeper before you write the check. Insurance for older boats can be an issue in the US however if you are talking about 50K then you may just want to go with liability and that is not usually difficult to get. It will be next to impossible to get someone to finance an older boat (>20 years) so be prepared to pay cash. best of luck

[HankOnthewater]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Side note: there are a lot more than two opinions though. Ask 10 sailors which boat is ideal for your situation and you will get 11 answers.

I use above quote often myself.
At times I replace "answers" with the word "opinions".

As said before, nearly everything on a boat has a limited lifespan. Such lifespan is greatly dependent on the care of the previous owners. It seems to me that most boats are sold just before some major upgrades are needed, even if the broker's blurb tells us otherwise. Hmmm, and at times a surveyor does not pick up the needs of such upgrade.

When buying a new, a recent, an old or a vintage boat, the new owner will need to spend money on any boat over the next 5-10 years, and likely even if ownership only lasts 2 years.

For me? I would not buy new. For three reasons: I like the classical lines of older boats better, and rarely are new boats fitted out the same way as the older boats are, meaning lots of money to spend on equipping the new boat. And lastly, the depreciating is huge for the next 3 years. Although with the current inflation, this latter factor might not look as bad.

A recent boat ie 3-15 years old for me? Again I can not see many desirable shapes of boats, unless I look semi-custom built. And in this age bracket already many major expenses can be expected: sails, electrical, electronics, heating/cooling, even engine at times.

An old boat for me, ie 15-40 years old would be my choice, as the initial purchase price is a lot lower, and I can then afford a size and model of a good pedigree boat. Repairs and maintenance would be similar to a 'recent' boat. But...... a very good initial survey is a must.

Vintage boats (40 years and older) would have the same maintenance requirements, but in addition to that other issues might play a role: chainplates, teak decks, steering, almost certainly engine swap (if not done before), and maybe hull integrity might be an issue ie steel, alloy, timber or cored hulls/decks.

What I have not mentioned that the internal volume (space) of newer boats is dramatically larger when comparing with an older boat (with same length over all). I do not know but maybe this next statement might be close being true: for each 10 years older, the volume decreases by 10%

[LouK]

There is some truth regarding the maximum amount an insurance company is willing to insure an older boat for. With Progressive where I’m insured, I think the value is $30-35K, not great. It would pay to check around.

Secondly, with new boats costing so much more than used, I’d say if you can afford a 10 yr old boat, then buy it; but know all boats take work and eventually repair. You just have to balance the cost of ownership and for me, an older boat (mid-80’s) has always fit my pocketbook better than a newer boat costing approximately double. Get a good survey, negotiate the best deal you can, buy some good repair books, buy tools ans you need them and be prepared to shell out over time. You’re going to need a healthy reserve one way or another.

[Anton Tokar]

Originally Posted by Madehn

+1 to this
Insurance for older boats can be an issue in the US however if you are talking about 50K then you may just want to go with liability and that is not usually difficult to get. It will be next to impossible to get someone to finance an older boat (>20 years) so be prepared to pay cash. best of luck

thanks for your response! Can you please tell me more about what is the difference between the normal insurance and the liability (for older boats)?
Also, what do you mean by financing an older boat?
Sorry, but I'm not familiar with the boat insurance world...

[s/v Jedi]

Not saying that I don’t like any of them but this is my list of what to avoid buying:

- any ferro cement construction
- any solid wood construction (50’s, 60’s)
- any fiberglass chopper gun construction (the 4” thick hulls)
- unless you’re gonna go among icebergs, any steel construction

The reason for avoiding these is maintenance levels that are unacceptable today, plus often slow, small, cramped.

From everything that is left, there are a couple I personally avoid because of concerns on safety and that is Irwin and Hunter. There are more troublesome ones, like Bavaria, but nothing that can’t be fixed/improved on those.
I know people are gonna hit me for the mention of Irwin and Hunter but they probably didn’t see what I saw after hurricane Ivan in Grenada.

Now preferences:

- aluminium construction (French, Dutch, Italian)
- wood epoxy construction (mostly custom, DIY incl. Wharram)
- fiberglass as the big catch all when the above categories fail)

Of particular likes: Sundeer of course, Amel, Hallberg Rassy, Ovni, Bestevaer, Moody, Contest, Hylas, J/boat, cats above 45’ but also Hanse, Jeanneau, Beneteau, Dehler etc.

Of older designs I like Rustler, Wauquiez, Bowman, Cal, Tartan, Morris etc.

and a thousand I feel I forget…

[zachduckworth]

I have a 1984 IB30. It's been maintained very well but there is a constant march of projects to work on. I have dealt with most of the really difficult ones and have been able to focus more recently on the minor ones or getting out ahead on a few. The boat had a major refit in 2008, which is when the standing rigging was changed. That is the next really big upgrade that I need to do and I will probably do it myself. This was my first boat. When I buy my second one I will have a completely different eye when I go shopping.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Anton Tokar

thanks for your response! Can you please tell me more about what is the difference between the normal insurance and the liability (for older boats)?
Also, what do you mean by financing an older boat?
Sorry, but I'm not familiar with the boat insurance world...

Liability insurance doesn't insure your boat it just provides protection in case you do something stupid and damage someone elses boat or marina or dockyard. It tends to be significantly cheaper and underwriting is less strict. Most Marinas will not let you berth if you don't have at least liability insurance. Note at least in the US even getting liability insurance can sometimes be problematic for very old boats (>40 years) which is a shame because there are some really well mainted 40, 50, even 60 year old boats. Insurance however is very location specific so it may not be an issue for your location.

Financing means a loan. Many lenders have a max age they will issue a boat loan for so the older the boat the more likely you are going to need to pay 100% cash. If you are planning on paying cash regardless then this isn't an isue.

[Anton Tokar]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Liability insurance doesn't insure your boat it just provides protection in case you do something stupid and damage someone elses boat or marina or dockyard. It tends to be significantly cheaper and underwriting is less strict. Most Marinas will not let you berth if you don't have at least liability insurance. Note at least in the US even getting liability insurance can sometimes be problematic for very old boats (>40 years) which is a shame because there are some really well mainted 40, 50, even 60 year old boats. Insurance however is very location specific so it may not be an issue for your location.

Financing means a loan. Many lenders have a max age they will issue a boat loan for so the older the boat the more likely you are going to need to pay 100% cash. If you are planning on paying cash regardless then this isn't an isue.

Thank you! Now I see. I didn't know that people even buy insurance on credit.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Anton Tokar

Thank you! Now I see. I didn't know that people even buy insurance on credit.

They don't. Financing would be financing the boat.

[CMH]

To the Jedi,
Please share the safety concerns you have WRT my Irwin 65. Did they not hold up in the hurricane you mentioned ? My wife and I are on our 1984 Irwin 65 in the sea of Cortez and are anxious to hear about them. We know all about the overblown concern about the hidden chain plates and the deck to hull connection. So, what else you got?
BTW, out of curiosity I just viewed the photos of a Sundeer 64 for sale on YachtWorld and am shocked at how little living space it has. It may get you there a knot faster, but when we get there we’ll have enjoyed our trip far more than if we had sailed the Sundeer - not to mention that we paid half the amount for the Irwin. The Irwin 65 isn’t a rocket ship in light winds at 80,000 lbs, but she is extremely comfy, has unbelievable tankage, is a split rig making it easy to short hand, the fiberglass is between 2” and 3” thick, we could square dance in the saloon, have a party in the cockpit, and we don’t have to crawl over each other to get into bed.
Have you ever been on an Irwin 65?
Chris

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by CMH

To the Jedi,
Please share the safety concerns you have WRT my Irwin 65. Did they not hold up in the hurricane you mentioned ? My wife and I are on our 1984 Irwin 65 in the sea of Cortez and are anxious to hear about them. We know all about the overblown concern about the hidden chain plates and the deck to hull connection. So, what else you got?
BTW, out of curiosity I just viewed the photos of a Sundeer 64 for sale on YachtWorld and am shocked at how little living space it has. It may get you there a knot faster, but when we get there we’ll have enjoyed our trip far more than if we had sailed the Sundeer - not to mention that we paid half the amount for the Irwin. The Irwin 65 isn’t a rocket ship in light winds at 80,000 lbs, but she is extremely comfy, has unbelievable tankage, is a split rig making it easy to short hand, the fiberglass is between 2” and 3” thick, we could square dance in the saloon, have a party in the cockpit, and we don’t have to crawl over each other to get into bed.
Have you ever been on an Irwin 65?
Chris

Our interior is only 38’ so that is why it appears so small to you. The other 26’ is divided over a sail locker at the bow and the engine room in the back. There are watertight bulkheads separating the three compartments.

I have not seen an Irwin 65; I believe it was an Irwin 50 that we checked out, broken and sunk on the reef in front of Mt Hartman Bay in South Grenada during the hurricane Ivan aftermath. It was a dead calm with gentle ripples not even 4” high coming by and the hull rippled along with it. Everyone who witnessed it called it “like cardboard”. The Irwin’s were called cruiser killers (I don’t personally know of any deaths but apparently others did) and I believe not one Irwin in Grenada survived the storm. Many boats (hundreds), incl. heavy steel ones, a 70’ Swan etc. sunk as well so it’s not just about that; what put me off was the paper thin hull waving back and forth over the length of the boat.

We had friends with a Hunter and although it still floated afterwards, ithadhuge holes in the hull above the waterline, caused by the wood decking of the dock they were tied to. It literally had eaten away the hull at the corner with the stern and mostly random fiber matt was exposed instead of roving.
The owners sold it asap and bought something else (a cat )

[CMH]

Jedi
So you’re basing what you know about Irwins on what you saw a hurricane do to one, and an unbelievably ridiculous comment about Irwins being “cruiser killers”. Wow!
I wouldn’t hesitate to take mine anywhere in the world. It is as solid as a rock and built to be a world cruiser. You may be interested in comparing our capsize and comfort ratios to yours.
From what I know about early Irwin construction, the minimum fiberglass thickness on the smaller boats is 3/8” thick well above the waterline and the thickness varies to up to two inches below. So please send me pics or video of the rippling cardboard you claim to have seen.
How about some hearsay on the steel hulls and the Swan which also received hurricane damage? This is getting good.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by CMH

Jedi
So you’re basing what you know about Irwins on what you saw a hurricane do to one, and an unbelievably ridiculous comment about Irwins being “cruiser killers”. Wow!
I wouldn’t hesitate to take mine anywhere in the world. It is as solid as a rock and built to be a world cruiser. You may be interested in comparing our capsize and comfort ratios to yours.
From what I know about early Irwin construction, the minimum fiberglass thickness on the smaller boats is 3/8” thick well above the waterline and the thickness varies to up to two inches below. So please send me pics or video of the rippling cardboard you claim to have seen.
How about some hearsay on the steel hulls and the Swan which also received hurricane damage? This is getting good.

You asked me, remember? I’m just reporting what I saw and what people said. If you don’t want to hear that then don’t ask me to tell you

[BlackOak]

Im on the same page as Ryban, kindren spirit.

The only issue I have with an old boat is the wiring. I have found to be a spaghetti bowl of wires going in every other direction, and tracking them down can take the better part of a weekend, then ripping them out. Then there is the hidden chainplates, and keel bolts(why i prefer encapsulated keels).

Also, less is more. New boats with all their doo-dads, amenities, creature comforts, just something waiting to repaired, replaced, tossed overboard.

Save your money on that new boat. There is a reason why marinas exist. hot showers, porcelain to sit on(which I found a treat in my adventure because everything would fit in the bowl), laundromat, shore power & water, and a good night sleep.

Lastly, NEVER go into debt to buy a new boat, or any boat.