Opinions needed on two sailboats

[Silvrav]

Hi Guys.

I have now short listed it between 2 boats for potential purchase and they are vastly different...

One is the Beneteau First 42 and the other is a Koopmans 38.

Both surveys looks good but I am leaning towards the Koopmans due to its full hull as I would prefer to have stability at anchor/mooring and reduce the risk of the spade rudder failing (yes yes I know this is a vast debate).

Anyone that has sailed both and or have any comments opinions?
The Beneteau is a well know name, longer and bigger beam provigin more space....

Links below:
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/b...8?bof=lwEah5Fh

https://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/search/d...0Koopmans%2038

[more]

Originally Posted by Silvrav

Hi Guys.

I have now short listed it between 2 boats for potential purchase and they are vastly different...

One is the Beneteau First 42 and the other is a Koopmans 38.

Both surveys looks good but I am leaning towards the Koopmans due to its full hull as I would prefer to have stability at anchor/mooring and reduce the risk of the spade rudder failing (yes yes I know this is a vast debate).

Anyone that has sailed both and or have any comments opinions?
The Beneteau is a well know name, longer and bigger beam provigin more space....

Links below:
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/b...8?bof=lwEah5Fh

https://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/search/d...0Koopmans%2038

o my good so expensive, in croatia if you recive 20-30000 € for this boat you are very lucky. and who pay 20 000€ very stupid guy.
also what i see this 2 boat only rope for marina is shared.
good luck (you need)

[Silvrav]

Originally Posted by more

o my good so expensive, in croatia if you recive 20-30000 € for this boat you are very lucky. and who pay 20 000€ very stupid guy.
also what i see this 2 boat only rope for marina is shared.
good luck (you need)

The listed price is New Zealand dollar, and the prices listed is more then I agreed to.

Would be about 45,000 usd, but yes we are limited in what we can get this side of the world

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by Silvrav

Hi Guys.

I have now short listed it between 2 boats for potential purchase and they are vastly different...

One is the Beneteau First 42 and the other is a Koopmans 38.

Both surveys looks good but I am leaning towards the Koopmans due to its full hull as I would prefer to have stability at anchor/mooring and reduce the risk of the spade rudder failing (yes yes I know this is a vast debate).

Anyone that has sailed both and or have any comments opinions?
The Beneteau is a well know name, longer and bigger beam provigin more space....

Links below:
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/b...8?bof=lwEah5Fh

https://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/search/d...0Koopmans%2038

I have never sailed the Koopmans, however, I have a Spencer 42 that is incredibly similar to her hull form, and would be a near identical boat if the Koopmans had a lazarette behind the cockpit.

I love my boat for the way she sails and I would expect that the Koopmans has very similar properties and were I shopping for a boat today knowing what I know now, I would certainly take a hard look at the Koopmans. Especially having a rudder that is almost identical to my own, where I can throw the wheel hard and that rudder will create enough force to move the boat from a standstill and she can be skulled with the rudder if there is minimal current which also means when slow speed maneuvering that rudder is an asset.

Just be prepared for the fact that she will back up like and old blind drunk fat dog.

From what I can tell of the Koopmans it seems to be a finely built boat, the interior fitup looks to be well done and of quality materials, I do quite like the sit down nav station.

She also has a fairly new Kubota Diesel, I have run quite a bit of equipment on land over the years and Kubota engines have always treated me right, how well she would treat you I suspect would be a function of how well the engine was marinized and by whom.

What I would suggest is get on the Koopman and spend some time on it see if you like it and if the layout works for you, I know I have a few reservations about her layout, the galley is not the best for at sea, and the head is meh.

But overall she seems to be a fine boat.

As for the Beneteau, well I will be the first to tell you it is not a boat that I would spend my money on, I am of the opinion that Beneteau brings their money on branding and name reckognition, not on the quality of the build and quite frankly, I don't care for their boats. Albeit one caveat to that is some of their older boats were better built.

This one in particular looks as though it has had some terrible work done to her such as how the windlass is mounted, when I see that it is the calling card of an idiot who ought not to be working on boats to slap that in there like that as the big gaping hole in the deck is going to introduce gallons upon gallons of sea water into the boat any time the bow gets stuffed in a wave.

It also says that the engine was replaced, but I think it is more likely rebuilt, it looks to me to be a Perkins 4108 which is a mighty fine engine except for the fact that it is out of production and has been out of production I think since the early 1990's if memory serves although I could be wrong. I am not a Perkins guy so don't take what I say about them as the gospel.

What I do know though is that parts for those older Perkins engines as great as they are in some cases are becoming unobtanium, especially in far off parts of the world. I cannot speak for New Zealand never having been there myself, but my inclination would be that Kubota, Isuzu or Yanmar are a much safer bet in that part of the world as they all originate in Asia however, in this global economy you never can tell.

Ultimately if you handed me the title for the Beneteau and told me to do what ever I wanted with it, I would sell it to someone who really loves the Beneteau name, and find something else more to my liking.

One I would definitely look at, is a Spencer 42 for sale in French Polynesia, beautiful boat, far nicer interior, and less money than either of the ones you are looking at and I would consider her to be a far superior boat as she has had a complete modernization and refit about 14 years ago and still looks very good and has all the cruising kit to get her back to New Zealand.

She even has a Hydrovane and self tailing winches. The only reason she isn't selling is she is in Papeete which is one of the worst places on the planet to sell a boat to the best of my understanding.

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/196...er-42-9152962/

The only thing I can really beat her up for is that she does not have the hard dodger like mine does which I have quite fallen in love with as it keeps the boat so damn dry. That and the canvas on her dodger will want to be replaced soon.

It would take about 15-18 days to sail her direct the 2200 NM from Papeete to Aukland, if you don't want to iron man the whole thing can always make a layover in the Cook Islands.

[Silvrav]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

I have never sailed the Koopmans, however, I have a Spencer 42 that is incredibly similar to her hull form, and would be a near identical boat if the Koopmans had a lazarette behind the cockpit.

I love my boat for the way she sails and I would expect that the Koopmans has very similar properties and were I shopping for a boat today knowing what I know now, I would certainly take a hard look at the Koopmans. Especially having a rudder that is almost identical to my own, where I can throw the wheel hard and that rudder will create enough force to move the boat from a standstill and she can be skulled with the rudder if there is minimal current which also means when slow speed maneuvering that rudder is an asset.

Just be prepared for the fact that she will back up like and old blind drunk fat dog.

From what I can tell of the Koopmans it seems to be a finely built boat, the interior fitup looks to be well done and of quality materials, I do quite like the sit down nav station.

She also has a fairly new Kubota Diesel, I have run quite a bit of equipment on land over the years and Kubota engines have always treated me right, how well she would treat you I suspect would be a function of how well the engine was marinized and by whom.

What I would suggest is get on the Koopman and spend some time on it see if you like it and if the layout works for you, I know I have a few reservations about her layout, the galley is not the best for at sea, and the head is meh.

But overall she seems to be a fine boat.

As for the Beneteau, well I will be the first to tell you it is not a boat that I would spend my money on, I am of the opinion that Beneteau brings their money on branding and name reckognition, not on the quality of the build and quite frankly, I don't care for their boats. Albeit one caveat to that is some of their older boats were better built.

This one in particular looks as though it has had some terrible work done to her such as how the windlass is mounted, when I see that it is the calling card of an idiot who ought not to be working on boats to slap that in there like that as the big gaping hole in the deck is going to introduce gallons upon gallons of sea water into the boat any time the bow gets stuffed in a wave.

It also says that the engine was replaced, but I think it is more likely rebuilt, it looks to me to be a Perkins 4108 which is a mighty fine engine except for the fact that it is out of production and has been out of production I think since the early 1990's if memory serves although I could be wrong. I am not a Perkins guy so don't take what I say about them as the gospel.

What I do know though is that parts for those older Perkins engines as great as they are in some cases are becoming unobtanium, especially in far off parts of the world. I cannot speak for New Zealand never having been there myself, but my inclination would be that Kubota, Isuzu or Yanmar are a much safer bet in that part of the world as they all originate in Asia however, in this global economy you never can tell.

Ultimately if you handed me the title for the Beneteau and told me to do what ever I wanted with it, I would sell it to someone who really loves the Beneteau name, and find something else more to my liking.

One I would definitely look at, is a Spencer 42 for sale in French Polynesia, beautiful boat, far nicer interior, and less money than either of the ones you are looking at and I would consider her to be a far superior boat as she has had a complete modernization and refit about 14 years ago and still looks very good and has all the cruising kit to get her back to New Zealand.

She even has a Hydrovane and self tailing winches. The only reason she isn't selling is she is in Papeete which is one of the worst places on the planet to sell a boat to the best of my understanding.

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/196...er-42-9152962/

The only thing I can really beat her up for is that she does not have the hard dodger like mine does which I have quite fallen in love with as it keeps the boat so damn dry. That and the canvas on her dodger will want to be replaced soon.

It would take about 15-18 days to sail her direct the 2200 NM from Papeete to Aukland, if you don't want to iron man the whole thing can always make a layover in the Cook Islands.

Thank you! Very valuable input. Must say if you search Beneteau you get thousands of results so it does create that, oh it must be good thought, and therefore me asking on here and everyone will have different experiences.

If I may ask, from research this hull seems to be referred to as an s shape hull. How is the maneuverability of this vs a full keel hull? you mentioned it will reverse similiar.

On the spencer42 link, she looks great but unfortunately I am financing, so limited to local boats at the moment.

[geoleo]

I would take the B42S add a feathering prop . Koop wont go upwind muck.B will nicely

[Bowdrie]

If I had to choose between those two for going cruising it would be the Koopman in a heartbeat.
The first couple of sentences about the Benny say it all:
"Frers design", "built to race".
Sorry Mr. Frers, been looking at your designs since the early '70s, rarely have I seen one that would be called "seakindly", or noted for "ease of motion", or even ease of access/maintenance.
All three are qualities of good desire for a cruising boat.

[S/V Illusion]

This B share the same problem many other B models have -a flat bottom few of the keel causing it to pound. I learned this the hard way. Never again…

[more]

Originally Posted by Silvrav

The listed price is New Zealand dollar, and the prices listed is more then I agreed to.

Would be about 45,000 usd, but yes we are limited in what we can get this side of the world

sorry i think is normal $.
for boat all depend why you need this boat. and your location where you sailing.

[Adelie]

Depends on what you want to do with the boat.

Koopmans is a steel boat. Looks like it’s designed for passage making.

If you weren’t going to do many passages, then probably the Beneteau.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by Silvrav

Thank you! Very valuable input. Must say if you search Beneteau you get thousands of results so it does create that, oh it must be good thought, and therefore me asking on here and everyone will have different experiences.

If I may ask, from research this hull seems to be referred to as an s shape hull. How is the maneuverability of this vs a full keel hull? you mentioned it will reverse similiar.

On the spencer42 link, she looks great but unfortunately I am financing, so limited to local boats at the moment.

I am not familiar with the term S shape hull. What I see is a full keel with a cutaway forefoot which is how I would describe her, almost getting into a large fin keel.



The maneuverability is going to be dependent on the authority of the rudder and how well she prop walks, obviously I cannot speak to the boat you are looking at, but on my Spencer prop walking her I can spin her in near her own length, and I am rather good at it because I simply got out when I got the boat and practiced with it till I had it locked down.

In reverse the rudder lacks authority, so the best way to make it turn in reverse is to throw it in forward, turn the rudder the way you want the hull to spin, give it a shot of power then go back to reversing once the angular momentum has been applied to the boat.



Going forward with the large rudder, it will absolutely yeet the boat around when you throw the wheel over, I have had several situations where I had to avoid a numbskull who wasn't paying attention and as long as there is a couple knots of way on I have always found her to be incredibly responsive.



On that Spencer, it may be worth the while talking to the Current owners, they are British, bought her during covid and now cannot sell her, they might be willing to work with you to make her a local boat she has been for sale over a year at this point and the price on it has cut almost in half of what they started asking.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by geoleo

I would take the B42S add a feathering prop . Koop wont go upwind muck.B will nicely

Why do you say that?


I have a very similar hull on my boat and she will point at 28° to the wind.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

This B share the same problem many other B models have -a flat bottom few of the keel causing it to pound. I learned this the hard way. Never again…

Sailing Le Vagabonde found this out the hard way sailing the south Pacific, she got off the boat and refused to get back on which is when they bought the catamaran.

[donradcliffe]

I circumnavigated in a First 456, which is the bigger sister of the First 42. I had to rebuild the rudder interior when I first got the boat, but the rudder post is massive, and not likely to break. You will be very happy sailing it. It goes to weather like a witch, and will do well downwind. It will back up easily under control. The Perkins will leak oil, and the keel attachment is minimal.

The Koopmans looks like a nice boat. It will not be as much fun to sail, but it will likely take longer to break up if you put it on a reef. It will take you twice as long to go to weather, and it is difficult to control in reverse. The engine is what I put in my First 456 when I got tired of cleaning up oil.

[sandy stone]

Beneteau has dozens of models, admittedly with varying degrees of build quality, but the First series from the 1980's were among the best. I have one, and it seems pretty stout to me. Also, German Frers is one of the most respected designers of the last 50 years.

That being said, when you get to boats this old, I don't think pedigree really counts for much. The main concerns are: what is the condition of the particular boat you're looking at, and is it suitable for your intended use?