Options to minimize heeling?

[Tillerjockey]

if you're just day sailing reach out and reach back and the boat won't heel too much and will sail fast.

If you must go to weather, one thing to try is put her up on the weather rail like the racers do. This way she can sit and find a balance point that feels normal and she won't feel the heel. Try it, it works. Seems wives and girlfriends are happy as clams up on the weather rail when the boat heels over.

[Hardhead]

I think that's the biggest misconception about sailing - people thinking that the more you heel, the faster you'll go.

It's probably turned a lot of people off to the sport, who didn't need to be.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

This might sound daft but go back to first principles and basic physics of sailing. Spend a bit of time learning the science behind the act of sailing, aerodynamics and sail/wing performance then things like "angle of stability" and other fun stuff.

Yes I know sounds boring but a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing but it can also take the fear out of something. If you understand the why of something and the how it no longer scares you (or at least doesn't scare you so much). Knowing why the boat heels when sailing upwind and how the keel works to counteract that heel and to stabilise the boat might help you and your wife become more comfortable with the boat at 30º or even more.

The angle of vanishing stability on my 40ft cruiser is in excess of 100º, meaning the keel will still right the boat even if the mast is under the water. If it can do that at 100º it will definitely keep her stable at 30º for instance.

Once you have the science understood you can put it into practice. Mount a clinometer somewhere where you can see it from the helm and go out for a sail. Agree a limit of heel, say 15º, and sail the boat upwind and aim to keep the heel to that angle. Learn to feel how the boat reacts to adjustments to the main; let it out slightly and the boat will fall back, pull it in and she'll heel up. Move to the windward side and back to the leeside and feel the boat react and the heel adjust. Then try a higher angle and see how the boat feels and how you both feel. Knowing the boat is highly unlikely to flip over even if you are gunwalls deep in the water or that leaning out off the high side can bring the heel down can be very comforting. Upwind you should be on the high side anyway but try to sit as far out as you can as every kilo and every cm from the centre line makes a big difference to upwind performance.

You'll also find there's a point where the sailing is easy. You aren't fighting the helm to maintain course, the boat feels alive but happy rather than angry and you are flying along almost effortlessly. That's the perfect point of sail and sail trim. In an ideal setting you could even let go the helm and she'll sail herself.

Quite often less is more. Put a roll in the headsail, let the main traveller go downwind or ease the main sheet a touch and not only do you drop the heel angle but you actually go quicker. Too much power in the sails leads to excessive heel and a fight to control the helm which can lead to broaching. It might look impressive to see boats heeled over but it is not the fastest way to sail. Don't be scared or embarrassed to go out with a reef in the main, it's easy enough to flake out a reef if you find you need more sail and it's easier to flake out than to fight to get a reef in sometimes (I know someone who never leaves port without the number 1 reef in).

Most of all don't get downhearted, scared or give up. There isn't a sailor alive who hasn't scared the youknowwhat out of themselves at some point (if they say they have never been frightened they are either liars or have never left the marina). Just get out in boats and learn your limits. Sailing should be enjoyable not a chore or something to be endured but at the same time don't let yourself become limited. Sometimes we need to scare ourselves to find a new limit.

Fair winds and following seas

Keiron

Your post borders on being poetry. Thanks for that. All wise words.

I'll add: as an emergency procedure, if a sudden extreme heel develops, you can release the sheets. Being "two sheets to the wind" is out of control, but it will stop the heel. I once sailed on a dark night out of Peir 1 at the San Francisco Ferry Terminal. It was dead calm. All I saw was glassy flat water as far as the city lights were cast. I looked around at flags on building tops, and they all were drooped. So I thought: "I'll just raise my sails here at the pier, with the jib and main sheeted all the way in to prevent flogging, then motor out and hope for wind."

I motored a hundred yards when: Wham! I got hit by a typical 25 knot Bay wind, directly abeam, that had been shadowed by the buildings. I looked sideways (not up) to see my starboard spreader dragging in the water while my boat skipped along sideways toward the path of an arriving ferry. All I could do was scramble to release my jibsheet and uncleat my mainsheet. The boat popped right back up, of course, and I only had to deal with severe embarrassment while I waved a sheepish thanks to the ferry helmsman for diverting out of my way. Lesson learned. Never go out of what could be a "wind hole" fully sheeted in.

Believe in your ballast. It will right you. Even if you are as stupid as me. Your boat's angle of vanishing stability is a good number to know before you decide to choose a boat. Bigger is better.

[PuttingDoctor]

Okay, sorry I just got past the first page. Let me suggest that you and she get in the smallest sailboat you can and really learn to sail. The idea of using weight to offset heel may make her a better sailor ... and you. Mistakes made in small craft make for fast learning ...assuming you don’t want to get wet.
Next you as stated on page one want a “fat bottom girl” wide beam boat to make offshore sailing comfortable.
My Irwin 46 may be a stretch for you but in 15-20 kts I rarely see more than 10 degrees of heel while making 8 plus with 4 sails flying full.
Let your lady experience the joy of sailing in the smaller craft so that she may appreciate the forgiveness of what it is you land on.

[Zhent]

Thank you everyone for the great comments and feedback. I haven't had a chance to respond individually to each, but I've read them all and it's been a great help. I haven't directed her to this thread, but we've talked about a lot of the common points and will be practicing more over the rest of the summer.

Just to respond to some of the recurring points - I'm comfortable sailing, especially on 420 and other dingy-sized boats, and we are familiar with how to reduce the heel when it occurs; as we look towards the upcoming years and the eventuality of buying our own boat, and the permanence that comes with that, I was wondering what characteristics of a sailboats design I should take into account.

A few people have asked - we have already spoken with the sailing class and instructor about the degree of heeling we were doing during class; he didn't realize it was as discomforting at the time, and was more than might necessarily have been appropriate.

I will definitely look into the angle's of vanishing stability mentioned above, and see if the intellectual knowledge that the boat will come back is enough to dissuade some of the emtional issues.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Zhent

...I will definitely look into the angle's of vanishing stability mentioned above, and see if the intellectual knowledge that the boat will come back is enough to dissuade some of the emtional issues.

Your attitude is good and I am sure you and your partner will be successful at becoming comfortable on a sailboat, and heeling will become less frightening over time especially when you know that you two, together, as partners, can control it (she has to be a sailing participant, not a passenger).

Instead of saying, "Stand it up!" encourage her to say, "I'm reefing".

But you are right that the knowledge that the boat will come back up is intellectual; that intellectual knowledge rarely relieves the emotional fear of tipping over too far.

And honestly, nearly all sailboats have really good limits of positive stability which far exceed what most of us will ever experience. What is more important is the knowledge, and the experiences we get which proove, that knockdowns stop when the wind spills from the sails at far, far, fewer degrees of heel than the limit of positive stability. It is an irrelevant number.

[TrentePieds]

Zhent:

The most succinct, most easily understood, thus most effective introduction to technical matters such as stability that often lie beyond the ken of many a novice cruising man, is to be found Skeene's Elements of Yacht Design edited by Francis Kenney. Amazon will let you have one for a mere thirty bux.

Since your wife is the fearful one, SHE should have a look at Skeene's, so that SHE may learn directly from it, and therefore not have to accept these things in the state they will be after they've passed through the filter that is you :-)!

But wingssail is right: Having INTELLECTUAL ballast is rarely enuff to prevent an EMOTIONAL capsize! The tools for doing that are found in the discipline of psychology, not in the discipline of naval architecture. Your task is to instill in your wife a sense of "as long as I'm here you are safe". Some variety of that sentiment is the foundation of all good teaching, and the ability to instill it in others is an essential trait of all good teachers.

Good luck with it :-)!

TP

[django37]

So, you have just explained why there now is sold and built more cruising catamarans than monohulls

[Mogle]

Originally Posted by Zhent

The question is - as we look to potentially buying something in 2 years, are there design points that will minimize this, or sail more efficiently flatter?

I don't want to sound rude, but if you can't handle heeling, is sailing something for you and your wife. What about golf!

Every boat design is different. Newer designed monohulls will all heels. A more traditional fin keel can often take lots of sea. The newer fin keel is faster downwind, and not so good in lots of sea. You did not say anything about boat size. Are you looking for day and weekend sailing only, or live onboard?

I got a very simple advice: GO SAILINNG. Join a local sailing club, get friends that got boats, get friends that need crew, built up your own experiences. Try different boats. As you build up your experience you soon find out:
a) Is sailing something for me.
b) You find out what type of sailing you like.
c) You find out what you like. Do you like the centre cockpit, old design, new wider boats, how many heads to you want, do you like furler mainsail, can you reef the main with slab reefing in 30 knots plus?

So again - GO SAILING. Forget that you plan to get your own boat in two years time. When you have found out what you want, it can easily take two years just to find the boat you want. So again. GO SAILING.

[sailcrazy]

Following. After sailing Asia, the Medd, and now 5 years in the Caribb the "Admiral" still gets really antsy when we heel over more than 20*. And, as has been said several times, we go faster at 15* (give or take) than heeled more....and it's is way more comfortable. Our old boat, a Tao Chow 33, was an aft cockpit with very short sideswalls, and putting the caprail in the water was the only way she knew how to sail. But she was also a full keel, very heavy, old style boat. Our present boat, with only a trapazoid-shaped keel and skeg-hung rudder, sails alot faster and differently, and alot more comfortably. We converted our sloop rig to a cutter, and that small staysail has made all the difference when we're to wx. And we've gone from a 150% deck-sweeper jib, to a 135%, to now a 98%......and the reefing requirement has gone way down! But without a doubt, the best advice......reef early. If you even think about it-it's likely time to reef!

[boatman61]

To much macho 'Go Faster' and too little team playing..
An efficient sailboat is only as good as its weakest link, if you value your partner work within the limits..
If you dont give a sh1t sail solo..
Sit her on the rail.. Hilarious.

[wesevans]

Look for a boat that is relatively stiff and do not push as hard. Sail a few points lower and reduce main sail. Beamy boats tend to be stiffer

[Cheechako]

#1 Get a catamaran
#2 Get Beam and ballast
#3 Do not buy an old school narrow boat even with 50% ballast ratio. You'll spend your life at heavy heel.

[robmo]

Originally Posted by Zhent

Hi everyone (this may be a silly / newb question, so apologies in advance.)

My wife and I have taken our 101 and 103 classes and are enjoying sailing about this summer, learning and gaining experience on the water. We've had some great instructors who have a ton of experience, which has really helped answer some questions that don't always come up online.

The biggest sticking point we've run into is upwind sailing. I have some experience in dinghy's doing some bay sailing, but my wife had never done any sailing in the middle of Ohio and is still concerned about the boat heeling over on an upwind course. The minute water starts hitting the leeward lifelines, she's asking whoever is piloting at the time to come upwind and trim the boat out. I'm sure that as we gain more experience on the water, some of this fear will subside, and we can always just not sail quite as efficiently upwind; when it's just the two of us, we're not in any rush.

The question is - as we look to potentially buying something in 2 years, are there design points that will minimize this, or sail more efficiently flatter? Does a deep, fin keel sail flatter than a shoal keeled boat, all else equal, or a ketch rig flatter than a sloop rig? Is there something in the boat design that would indicate a flatter ride? (Other than buying a boat with a second hull attached to the first )

Thanks!

Easy beans, but a nice, beamy power boat, problem solved, they never heel upwind or down wind. If you buy, say, a 28 ft monohull, it will have more than a ton of lead hanging underneath it. I think you need to clearly explain to her that that boat is not going to flip over when it’s heeling at 15-25 degrees. If she heels too far, she’ll automatically round up into the wind. Wasn’t this explained in your sailing classes? That ASA stuff is for the birds, go out and do it, learn the hard way. Anyway, explain that to her then put a safety tether on her, clip her in and heel the boat over sailing to weather. Let her heel way over till she rounds up. Repeat that maneuver several times until your wife is convinced. Then have her take the helm and do it. She needs to come to terms with heeling if she’s ever going to sail. You can’t control the elements or the weather and you’re going to be in situations where you’ll have to sail to weather (when it’s blowing hard) and the boat is going to be heeling over. So, have her experience it under controlled conditions, she’ll overcome her fear and learn to love it. She needs to have confidence in you, herself and especially the boat.

[boatman61]

Sailed the S coast UK, W Atlantic and Med for 5yrs with a ballsy gf.. but she never grew to love 'Tippy Tippy'.