Osmosis treatment with homemade hotvac

[rogerball0]

What i've been upto these last couple of weeks:




The rest of the pictures are here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1101828...eat=directlink

and here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1101828...eat=directlink

cheers

roger

[terah]

Please excuse the thread resurrection. Been looking over this and everything makes sense, except:

How do you vulcanize the two rubber mats together?

[rogerball0]

I didn't vulcanise the black mats i just bonded them together with butyl tape. The orange mats were 2 panels welded together with a continuous electrical element inbetween to form one mat.

hope that helps

roger

[terah]

Thanks Roger.

I'm going to try the rubber mats with 30W constant wattage cable that should get to touch temperature of 100C. If that doesn't work I'll then go down the custom mat route.

Cheers,

Terah

[rogerball0]

Originally Posted by terah

Thanks Roger.

I'm going to try the rubber mats with 30W constant wattage cable that should get to touch temperature of 100C. If that doesn't work I'll then go down the custom mat route.

Cheers,

Terah

Go for it Terah, I had good results with underfloor heater cables sandwiched between to butyl-taped sheets of EPDM rubber sheets, i could those upto 70 degrees celsius though they took a their time, from memory they were 100W.

The custom made mats (orange ones) would go 0 - 100oC in about a minute and way more adjustable with the thermostatic controller.

Any problems, give us a shout.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1101828...eat=directlink

cheers

[SemusMcgilicoty]

Roger,
Volker,
Mischief...

Are you guys online?
Need to pick your minds on some of this stuff.

R and V... re sealing the mats.
Mischief... Did you get a gel plane?

Thanks,

Shea

[ottow]

Here is another DYI hotvac variant. Maybe worth looking into.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfLZEiBiDU4

[rogerball0]

Originally Posted by ottow

Here is another DYI hotvac variant. Maybe worth looking into.

Nope thats mine as well, talked Mads through how to do it via my specs and he built an exact copy of my system.

Shea

Go to my blog (link posted below) and you'll find my email address, quite happy to answer any questions. Projects on hold due to lack of funds it may start up again soon. You can use the blogs search facility to see how i made the system, just type in 'home brew hot vac' or 'hot vac' into the search bar.

The only other problem is after picasa got closed and turned into google photos lots of the pictures are missing. Regards the gelplane i made one by butchering an old makita unit, kinda worked, then bought an electric compass plane which wasn't much better so ended up getting someone in to professionally plane although in my opinion he didn't do a very good job.

Links

blog: A Gentleman's Yacht

blog albums: https://plus.google.com/collection/oYgiPE

hotvac album: https://goo.gl/photos/jyUGuyivzxGcaZVq6

Hope that helps

[SemusMcgilicoty]

Roger,
Cheers for that mate.
I read through your entire blog a couple of nights ago. Being in PNG with **** coverage it was a task and a half. Ironically I have your google pics open right now when you replied! Was devoed on your quick departure and wondering about your future intent.

I have learnt a few things from your blog and have settled on not making my mats out of self regulating wires. I will get on Alibaba and purchase a couple from China.

A few things that you may assist me with IAW your experience...

1. Quality of mat. I note your need to overlay a second cover for suction. was that based on not having a hole to apply suction through?

2. do you thing there is a requirement for drainage? According to Bengt Bloomberg (osmosisinfo.com) the cleaning should be by pressure (hot and steam if possible) every 2nd day for a period of I cant remember and that will lead to quicker passive drying. Then it should be air dried for a period then followed up by hotvac before epoxy. If I do it like this rather than hotvac immediately, would there be much drainage to need more than just a porous material (as an air matrix) between the hull and mat?

3. What sized mats would be advisable. I think the widest I can find would be 1200mm. I was considering 1200x2000. Do you see any issues with this?

4. Pump... you said you mk3 was with 2 mats. Your pics only show the connection for single ones to the pump. I am assuming you used your single pump? I'm considering a miking machine pump but am yet to source.

5. Temp. Your mats got to 94C. did you attempt to get any higher?

6. Sand blasting vs peeling. Ack that peeling gives a flatter coverage which leads to les faring but less vision on soft spots. I'm considering peel then light blast to get soft spots sorted. A surveyor recommended just blasting. I'm hesitant as I may be faring on my own as there is no fibre glassers in my area. Maybe another reader has vision on weather its worth spending the money on a GC plane. ?$2000 outlay with ability to sell after.

Im sure I can come up with a few more questions later.

Cheer mate

Shea

[SemusMcgilicoty]

Just got access to YouTube link above. Twas mads' vid that got me looking!

[rogerball0]

Hi Shea

Regarding the project who knows, keeping a roof over my head in this continually turbulent economy is way more important than getting a boat restored, that said it may start again but as i write its on stop.

Yes having conducted many experiments with various heat sources i concluded a bespoke mat was the way to go, those underfloor heating elements worked (the cable more so than the carbon film) but took an age to get up to the temperatures i wanted.

1)From my reading of the subject and blatently copying the hot vac protocols, the spec i decided was 0 - 100 degrees C and the most efficient way was using silicone rubber. Incidentally yes you're right the overlay that accomodates the suction cup was an oversight on my part, i forgot to ask the manufacturer to put in a hole for the suction cup to attach to.

2)Regarding drainage i have my boat in the back garden so all water drained into the ground, I dont think its an issue imo. Washing though is very important to the whole process as i've explained to Mads and several others otherwise you'll get false readings, you need to wash the hull thoroughly & regularly preferably with hot water, allow to dry then add heater mats when the readings drop. I wouldn't worry about steaming the hull, that was one of my more hair-brained ideas although it helped a little, it also changed the colour of the laminate and made many fibres all stand up on end, curiously it was good for finding voids and unconsolidated areas of laminate but regular washing will be fine, just do that as often as possible and keep records of the readings.

From memory i thought i could just whack the heater mats on and that would be it and initially it worked as the moisture meter gave good readings then after a while the same area that had previously been 'dry' would start to creep back up and this is because the solutes (glycols) haven't been cleared from the laminate hence the need to wash the hull.

I spent months pressure washing my hull and leaving it to air dry every couple of days, i would do this before i went to work and would take moisture readings in the evenings. It was only after the moisture readings started to drop purely by washing and drying that i then started back on with the heater mats. If you look at the date stamps on the pictures from start to finish it took somewhere in the region of 18 months to get my hull down into the yellow (dry) section on the tramex moisture meter. But my boats hull was saturated, if you find the pictures of the guy doing my gel peel you can actually see water running out of the laminate around the keel stubs!

A good port of call is Nigel cleggs website, he advised me all those years ago and theres a load of freely available downloads on his site that will help you form your own strategy on how to tackle your boat. His site is Passion for Paint - Osmosis All the information i have and indeed explain to people is freely available from Nigels site and a book i'd also recommend getting is Hugo De Plessis called fibreglass boats

3)Size of mats will depend on budget i got two 1000mm x 500mm mats made for £400 (£200 each) Mads got a shock as i think his 1500mm x 500mm was £600 alone, mind you i got mine made in the height of the GFC (2010). Regarding size i wouldn't go too big as even with the butyl tape around the edge the sheer weight of the matt can sometimes pull the matt off the hull. One of my early attempts (the black mat with the heater cable set-up,) was 1200mm x 1200mm and i physically couldn't keep it attached to the hull before all the air had been sucked out - it would keep falling off so i wouldn't go much more than say 1200mm x 600 imo.

4)Alot will depend on the quality of your vacuum set up, me - i prefer cheap simple ebay pumps which can be had for £50 - 60. The mk3 set up was one pump running a 6 inlet manifold so theoretically you could run 6 mats but thats way too costly on all fronts. I had the two mats running on one 3CFM 1/4hp single stage pump.

5) My mats from memory are good to 120 degrees c but the ATC800 control boxes have a max range of 100 degrees, thats more than plenty. The photo i took of the two boxes in situ at around 94 degrees was bloody uncomfortable in the immediate area such was the heat. That reminds me, be prepared for some pretty big energy bills running this system. On these control boxes you can set the temperature perameters so i initally went for full 100 degree c heat cycles then varied it to 80 - 100 degree c - do remember you can irrersibly damage the laminate with prolonged high temps. Your guide in all this will be how wet the laminate is and what the readings are and then as the readings start to drop vary the temps downwards.

6) Blasting gives a much better key to apply the laminate but in some cases (depends on how bad the mainate is) can create a load more filling and fairing. I ve seen excellent results with soda but i personally would be concerned at applying that much force to what is already a suspect laminate that said the downside of peeling is an credibly smooth finish which you'll need to key-up, i used 40 grit flap discs gently run over the surface to rough it up, obviously dont go mad or you're into loads of making good.

I never got why the gelplanes were so expensive, here in the UK at the time they were £1800. I had a go at cutting one of my old makitas down so the barrel was exposed at the front but it was barely controllable, i then bought a virutex compass planer and to be honest that wasn't much better. So i paid £400 to have someone come and peel it, I'd only consider buying one if i was going to go into the business of peeling otherwise its just another (expensive) tool sat in a drawer under your bench and the chances of you flogging it on and getting anywhere near your money back are close to zero.

Heres what i wrote for the westerly wiki pages on the subject, hope it fleshes it out a little more:

Drying out the hull

Roger

[SemusMcgilicoty]

Rog,

I have been quoted for this mat
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Snow-Melting-Mat-Silicone-heater-Blankt_60350309742.html?spm=a2700.8443308.0.0.mdRu v8

1200x2000mm @ $US425
550*2200 is $US220

Controller as: Heating Boiler Thermostat Digital Temperature Controller Ed330l - Buy Heating Thermostat,Digital Temperature Controller,Boiler Thermostat Product on Alibaba.com

I will ask for a price of a 1300x 1000.
I'm thinking its just the right size to be able to hold both corners with just one person.
Also maybe there's a possibility of putting 2 x holes for suction. Warranted you think?
I'm guessing that you used the standard epoxy vacuum connectors?
Are you familiar with Bengt Blombergs publication??Untitled
Do you think there is a need to the epoxy catcher?
More to follow mate!

cheers,

Shea

[rogerball0]

Originally Posted by SemusMcgilicoty

Rog,

I have been quoted for this mat
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Snow-Melting-Mat-Silicone-heater-Blankt_60350309742.html?spm=a2700.8443308.0.0.mdRu v8

1200x2000mm @ $US425
550*2200 is $US220

Controller as: Heating Boiler Thermostat Digital Temperature Controller Ed330l - Buy Heating Thermostat,Digital Temperature Controller,Boiler Thermostat Product on Alibaba.com

I will ask for a price of a 1300x 1000.
I'm thinking its just the right size to be able to hold both corners with just one person.
Also maybe there's a possibility of putting 2 x holes for suction. Warranted you think?
I'm guessing that you used the standard epoxy vacuum connectors?
Are you familiar with Bengt Blombergs publication??Untitled
Do you think there is a need to the epoxy catcher?
More to follow mate!

cheers,

Shea

With your heatermat be careful, that advert says 380V a quick google tells me PNG operates on a voltage of 240v (the same as here in the UK) so make sure you nail down the input voltages before buying or you're wasting money.

The control box looks fairly similar to the ATC unit, what you want from this device is the ability to set temperature ranges, have a heating and cooling circuit and the facility for a probe to be mounted which will sit against the hull whilst connected to the control box.

The size of the mat is down to you and what you feel confortable handling, i'd go with one hole as you're introducing complexity that you don't need (another potential source of leaks and handling problems) and yes just normal vacuuming consumables are perfectly fine for all this.

I fitted a catcher pot incase a moisture made it through the system to the pump but in reality everythings vapourised so not necessary in my opinion.

Yes i've heard of Bengt Blomberg.

All the best

[maxpics]

Hi people,

its been a few years now since this thread was active but maybe someone ist still reading this:.

I guess most of you have finished their hotvac-project by now so why not sell your homemade hotvac-mats instead of letting it rott in the garage?

Not that i am lazy but i have enough to do with my boat as it is so i thought maybe someone wants the investment back after completion and i could save a lot of time and work.
I am in Munich/Germany for calulating shipping costs.

Happily awaiting offers from you. Actually it would be awesome if i find a mat this way. A vacuumpump i have allready.

If noone answers i will ask you Volker where you got all the stuf from to build, ok?

Thank you all.

Best, Max.

[rogerball0]

Originally Posted by maxpics

Hi people,

its been a few years now since this thread was active but maybe someone ist still reading this:.

I guess most of you have finished their hotvac-project by now so why not sell your homemade hotvac-mats instead of letting it rott in the garage?

Not that i am lazy but i have enough to do with my boat as it is so i thought maybe someone wants the investment back after completion and i could save a lot of time and work.
I am in Munich/Germany for calulating shipping costs.

Happily awaiting offers from you. Actually it would be awesome if i find a mat this way. A vacuumpump i have allready.

If noone answers i will ask you Volker where you got all the stuf from to build, ok?

Thank you all.

Best, Max.

I wont speak for Volker but the reasons for making the system and publishing it all over the internet was to enable people like yourself to build your own for a fraction of the cost of the 'pro' system. You have a vac pump so all you need is a control box (50 euros) and a mat, think Mads ended up paying 400 euros but his one is big - and you're on you're way.

Hawco refrigeration in Godalming Surrey UK is where i got mine made. Or you could do what Volker did and i did in the early days and wire up underfloor heating cable set in rubber matting, that'll cost about 50 euros. Click the link below and build your own one, i've helped many people from all over the world make their own - its easy and very simple if you want any advice contact me through my blog.

If you can wire a plug (Live, Neutral & Earth) you can make your own system

Have a go:
http://https://westerly-owners.info/index.php?title=Drying_out_the_Hull

FWIW mine are neither rotting or for sale as they're too handy a piece of kit to sell hence the front page of my blog as i have grown tired of people sending me begging emails demanding i sale them my systems or in one case give them away for free. (He had a right tantrum i'm guessing he was a millennial?)

Why should I? I spent a good few months of my life 8 years ago experimenting in my shed taking Hot Vac' original idea and building a similar system you could make from easily available components to do it yourself.
I electrocuted myself many times, set fire to myself twice, and nearly set fire to the boat shed and in the process spent a lot of time and money. I did all that then when i came up with a system that worked and was proven stable enough to leave on its own i published how i did it for free for anyone to copy.

I could have done what a lot of people do and put it behind a paywall infact many told me i was mad not to but i gave it away for free to anyone who asked and have helped many make their own systems. Click the link above or the one below and it'll show you how to build your own.

https://goo.gl/photos/jyUGuyivzxGcaZVq6

Now get on with it