Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

[rslifkin]

In that case, it sounds like the boat is getting into a situation that rudder alone can't pull it out of, so it's a boat related handling problem, not an autopilot problem. In that case, the goal would be for the autopilot to respond aggressively enough early on to prevent it from getting into that situation.

And to improve getting out of that situation, you'd likely need a bigger or different design (more effective) rudder to give it some more authority. Or more boat speed or more engine power applied to get more water flow across the rudder for more steering authority. Of course, going faster or keeping more power on may have to be done preemptively, as the autopilot can't adjust anything more than the rudder.

Is this normally an issue heading into the seas or with them?

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

In that case, it sounds like the boat is getting into a situation that rudder alone can't pull it out of, so it's a boat related handling problem, not an autopilot problem. In that case, the goal would be for the autopilot to respond aggressively enough early on to prevent it from getting into that situation. And to improve getting out of that situation, you'd likely need a bigger or different design (more effective) rudder to give it some more authority. Or more boat speed or more engine power applied to get more water flow across the rudder for more steering authority. Of course, going faster or keeping more power on may have to be done preemptively, as the autopilot can't adjust anything more than the rudder. Is this normally an issue heading into the seas or with them?

Unfortunately, by the time the "rudder overlimit" alarm comes on, the boat is already stuck in this position. As I mentioned, sometimes if I give it enough time it can recover, but other times I have to manually get back on course.

This happens going downwind or upwind in heavy enough weather, and hasn't happened yet on a reach.

Our boat has a sizable skeg hung rudder that seems like it "shouldn't" have a problem handling heavy weather. This model Nauticat (manufactured in Finland) was designed by Sparkman and Stephens to handle the North Sea!

[NRbar]

I have a pilothouse with complete inside and outside controls, hydraulic steering. I agree with a previous poster, fatigue is the enemy off shore. Comfortable watch should be the number one safety concern. Coming on shift is easy without foul and cold weather clothing. My foul weather gear is mostly used for the dinghy ride to shore as I have to go to work no matter the weather. Sail controls run to the cockpit. Step out of the pilot house adjust sails, then inside. I am a passage maker as I have a schedule, I hoped to not have a schedule and sail her most of the time. Now she is a motor sailer, sailing with favorable winds but mostly motor sailing. She is a cruiser not a racer. A knot slower than someone else is no concern. I have got over nine knots under sail and that is good enough for me. Big pilot house windows, tempered sandwich glass and strong integral to the boat house construction. I broached three time in horrendous conditions with no concern for boat failure. The boat is more capable of abuse than any crew. Visibility from the cockpit is good, five foot three inch helms people need a short step stool. She was the helms person on all close in maneuvers. These were mostly done from outside to facilitate orders to the deck monkey. I am not in the tropics, the closest is Florida in the winter. The previous owners were ten years in the Caribbean. Good ventilation and a windsock over the forward hatch turns the entire boat air over, exiting out the pilot house companionway. The boat is too big for one, but my next boat will also be a pilothouse.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

I have all new B&G stuff, installed 2 years ago by my electronics guy who does factory installs and warranty work for B&G, so I trust I have the best setup possible electronically.

And that is exactly what happens- In a typical situation the rudder is at its limit when the alarm goes off and I'm parallel to waves large enough that even with the engine on (motorsailing for better control in gale conditions) I'm stuck in the troughs, the wind is too strong on the beam at the crests, and the autopilot can't recover the course. This is the only time I curse my high windage pilothouse and large hardtop over the center cockpit, acting as wind catchers.

When I take over and hand steer, sometimes I can time the waves and power back on course and sometimes I need to jibe around if upwind course and chicken jibe if downwind course.

B&G sells different kinds... your trust in your installer has proven to be in vain because it doesn’t work like it should... so why keep hanging on? Did you fall for his story that AP’s can’t steer in heavy weather?
We are offering to work this out for you... I guarantee you we have more knowledge here on sailboat electronics than any installer has, because we have plenty qualified installers here, as well as electronics engineers and designers.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

B&G sells different kinds... your trust in your installer has proven to be in vain because it doesn’t work like it should... so why keep hanging on? Did you fall for his story that AP’s can’t steer in heavy weather?

To be clear, my electronics guy did not tell me that autopilots can't steer in heavy weather. That is MY story and experience with my boat and other recreational ones I've encountered.

Also to be clear, my comment was "Few boats have an auto pilot that can keep up in a gale."

This doesn't mean all boats or all auto pilots, and doesn't mean in normal conditions. To be excruciatingly accurate I should have said "In my opinion/experience..." and I usually do qualify my comments when they are my opinion and not established provable fact. I am happy to be wrong and love this forum for helping me to become better informed by others (informed) experiences as well.

I try to give back by contributing quality information in response to posts that I believe I can add value, such as this one, having owned two pilothouse sailboats. I don't mind being called out if I am off base, but it does drive me crazy to defend something I didn't say.

[slug]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

To be clear, my electronics guy did not tell me that autopilots can't steer in heavy weather. That is MY story and experience with my boat and other recreational ones I've encountered.

Also to be clear, my comment was "Few boats have an auto pilot that can keep up in a gale."

This doesn't mean all boats or all auto pilots, and doesn't mean in normal conditions. To be excruciatingly accurate I should have said "In my opinion/experience..." and I usually do qualify my comments when they are my opinion and not established provable fact. I am happy to be wrong and love this forum for helping me to become better informed by others (informed) experiences as well.

I try to give back by contributing quality information in response to posts that I believe I can add value, such as this one, having owned two pilothouse sailboats. I don't mind being called out if I am off base, but it does drive me crazy to defend something I didn't say.

The autopilot does not steer the boat

The rudder does

The geometry of the rudder , keel , hull form plus chosen sail-plan ...determine the direction stability of a boat

No autopilot can overcome these factors

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

To be clear, my electronics guy did not tell me that autopilots can't steer in heavy weather. That is MY story and experience with my boat and other recreational ones I've encountered.

Also to be clear, my comment was "Few boats have an auto pilot that can keep up in a gale."

This doesn't mean all boats or all auto pilots, and doesn't mean in normal conditions. To be excruciatingly accurate I should have said "In my opinion/experience..." and I usually do qualify my comments when they are my opinion and not established provable fact. I am happy to be wrong and love this forum for helping me to become better informed by others (informed) experiences as well.

I try to give back by contributing quality information in response to posts that I believe I can add value, such as this one, having owned two pilothouse sailboats. I don't mind being called out if I am off base, but it does drive me crazy to defend something I didn't say.

I’m sorry, but you posted this wildly wrong claim about autopilots so naturally it gets challenged. It’s clear that you don’t want to share what you have and that’s just fine. I just want to make sure that others who read this know that your claim was BS, that your installer f’’ed up and got you a flawed setup.

Also, what I didn’t get is why you divert from the core of the issue. Why? The question is simple: when the bow is put to leeward by wind and waves, does your autopilot put the rudder over all the way? It will show the rudder angle on the displays. You seem to say “yes it does but it doesn’t work and I have to manually correct”. But how can you do that when the rudder is at it’s stop already?! You can’t turn it over more, it does not make sense.

Now please don’t say you correct by adjusting sheets

[rslifkin]

From what was described, it sounds like the autopilot probably isn't getting the rudder over fast enough when the boat starts to get pushed off course, so the boat gets into a situation where there's not enough rudder authority to get it back by the time the rudder is hard over. He mentioned sometimes being able to get it back with rudder and engine power, other times having to jibe to recover.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

From what was described, it sounds like the autopilot probably isn't getting the rudder over fast enough when the boat starts to get pushed off course, so the boat gets into a situation where there's not enough rudder authority to get it back by the time the rudder is hard over. He mentioned sometimes being able to get it back with rudder and engine power, other times having to jibe to recover.

That is possible, but here it is the task of the rate compass to signal this at a very early state.

I have used the Simrad RC36, Airmar h2183, the Maretron SS200 and the Maretron SS300 sensors. I still use the Airmar and SS300 which are equal I think (notice no difference) and both are better than the other two. But I used the RC36 for years without complaints as I simply didn’t know it could get better than that.

The setting you are referring to is the rudder gain. If the rudder is too slow, the gain should be set higher. This is normally automatically set during autopilot sea trials but can be manually adjusted as well.

Also, the B&G/Simrad pilots have two speed profiles. The high speed profile uses less rudder gain and it assumes less rudder at higher speed is okay. That change-over speed can be set as well. Everything can be adjusted. With my old analog pilot I used a little trimmer screwdriver to adjust and I could get it to steer perfectly. With the new ones it is all in the software menus.

Also, one needs to study these sensors. I have heard people claim their Garmin sensor is better... I Googled for a picture and it is the Airmar sensor with a Garmin sticker stuck onto it. It’s good because it’s an Airmar :-) The one I know nothing about is Raymarine but I think they worked it all out as well. All these pilots are good; the time of wheel and tiller pilots is behind us, good riddance! (I had steered downwind in 12’ seas on the North Sea for 14 hours once when my Autohelm wheel pilot fell apart).

[rslifkin]

Agreed on all of that stuff. Of course, if the actuator is marginally sized, it may just not be able to exert enough force to move the rudder fast enough even if the autopilot is commanding it to.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Agreed on all of that stuff. Of course, if the actuator is marginally sized, it may just not be able to exert enough force to move the rudder fast enough even if the autopilot is commanding it to.

True. The dock side setup tests for speed but not for speed under forces on the rudder during heavy weather. Here is is possible that the hydraulic drive needs to be upgraded, or the pilot computer, or both. But the selection criteria pre-purchase are pretty clear on this so something has gone terribly wrong if this happens to be the cause.

For now, I keep it on inadequate setup, sea trials, may be a rate compass problem (I have seen installations using just a heading sensor, no rate sensor).

[GRIT]

We had a Corbin 39 for 8 years. Crossed the Atlantic twice, and spent quite a lot of time in the Caribbean with it. We loved that pilot house, though the visibility from within pales in comparison to modern pilot houses, and Jedi's in particular, it was a great introduction to pilot houses in general.

We loved it so much, that my wife insisted that any future boat have such a setup. We built (still building) our new boat with just that in mind. Though this one will surely heat up more than your average pilot house, we'll deal with it. It's upsides are far greater than it's downsides.


Cheers, and good luck in your boat hunting.
Paul.

[passage_paul]

Thanks GRIT!

WIsh I had time and skills to build my own...made to order is great!

I have had alot of great input from everyone on this thread... and I do think a ph would fit me the best. I honestly did not think I would get even a 1/4 of the positive reviews that have come across.

It also makes me feel much better that folks are crossing vast distances in them without any outstanding issue...which is my primary goal. I would prefer to deal with heat/ I have been doing that ever since leaving Alaska...live in Alaska for 20 years and you are sweltering at 70f.... a cool shower and a margarita takes care of alot of the heat concerns... who needs AC? HA!

So now I am whittling it down.. I am gonna do a search here about fin vs. full keel... the full seems to be better maybe for a greenhorn like myself.??. and less to go wrong.??. I have read probably too many horror stories about fin.. but outside of interior layout I am not sure there is anything to outstanding to consider for condition items over a standard mono...??

I do want outside helm as well..but some folks here seem to be fine with only the interior helm... and some who are wanting ONLY the outside helm.. I want both....LOL

So are there any special issues that are exclusive to PH vessels that I should be aware of?. I am thinking the windows.. would be the biggest issue and whether they are in good condition... and as some mentioned a way to close off the pilothouse from the rest of the boat ..just in case?

THANKS EVERYONE for all of your great input..

I am taking 2 months off and travelling up and down the Pacific ..from BC on down to Mexico .. this June July to make a purchase and really need to have it all sorted clearly.. not alot of time to do that when covering that much coastline.. Hopefully I will find something in the PACNW and can spend the remaining vacation time settling in.

[GRIT]

You're welcome.

My two cents... I'm assuming you have little experience cruising, and I apologize if I've misread, or misunderstood your situation.

Most cruisers start with the idea that they want a full keel, until they get one. Then, most eventually get tired of getting to the anchorage last. Having said that; those who love them, love them a lot.

They tend to be comfortable, but nearly always slow. Often because they're old, and under canvassed.
There are very few new "full keel" boats around these days. Island Packets are about the only game in town, if you want anything built after 1990 or so. They're full keel, but a more modern design, with more sail area than you'll find in older full keel boats.

Don't set your mind on a narrow view of what you think you want. Get something with a good reputation, that "speaks" to you. Nearly any well found boat can be used to cruise, so look at a bunch of boats and see what you like. Once you find a few you like, choose one with a reasonable reputation, and go for it.

After that, build your skills, and get gone.

Nothing special to worry about with Pilot houses. Good windows would be nice, but you can put new ones if needed. Same with inside steering (especially if hydraulic) and other options. It can be added if you need it, or removed if you don't like it. Cable steering is a bit expensive to add a second station.

Cheers.
Paul.

This one was built in your neck of the woods. And friends of mine had one and loved it. https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/84708

[JPA Cate]

and as some mentioned a way to close off the pilothouse from the rest of the boat ..just in case?

You might want to think a little more about that...how'd you like to be locked below and unable to get out? Even the idea is scary to me.

Often people don't have an outdoor steering station when they have a pilot house. It is hard to see well with the pilot house blocking your view forward. Of course, depends on the boat.

Actually where monohulls are concerned, the more modern designs are pretty easy to handle, take less effort, and are more fun to sail than heavy, full keel ones. There is almost as much bitterness among the full keel contingent towards the fin keel group as there is among catamaran vs. monohull proponents. Some of us are even offshoots of the fin keel group, still wanting skeg hung rudders, not spade rudders. Everyone loves his/her own choices.

Here's how boat ownership with Jim has gone, for me. He had bought the third "big" boat by then. It was what he thought was best for him based on budget and experience (he had by then sailed the dickens out of a small ODay and a *much larger* Catalina 22). The 30 foot Yankee was a big step up. Next was the 36 footer, less tender than the Yankee, and we put a hard dodger on her, too. Now, there is the 46 footer, and we're back to a fabric dodger. Go figure. It offers adequate protection for what we do now. We think it is important to be able to pop up on deck to adjust *whatever*, we want easy outdoor access, and to know what we're going out into. Living in a pilot house isolates you from the elements, and some places they are really needed. Imho, not in the tropics. But I've never lived with one, either.

So, you start out with the pilot house, and you address the inevitable ventilation issues when you get where it is warm. As you travel to Mexico this year, compare numbers of boats with dodgers to those with pilot houses. Ask the people with pilot houses if they've had problems with them and if so, how did they solve them. It is only my opinion, but I like a kind of open plan, like a lot of Kiwi boats, not a bunch of small chopped up interior, but whose afficionado would possibly label "cozy". Enjoy whatever your choice turns out to be, and change it if you decide you want something different.

Ann