Please explain the advantage of an overhang to a longer waterline?

[Don C L]

The bobbing around thing, or hobby horsing, is true until she heels and the she speeds up and settles down, and at least with mine there is very little pounding, the motion can be very comfortable. But, yes, the overhang was a CCA thing as has been stated already.

[jewt]

If Nothing else a vessel with long overhangs and a nice sheer are prettier. Plum bows and stern are almost a ugly as Cats.

just sayin',

jewt

S/v Bifrost
'69 Morgan 41 K/CB

[boatpoker]

Modern boats with plumb bows and fat transoms are designed to to meet the market. i.e. much more interior volume for the chardonnay/dock party set. here is nothing wrong with that, they just build what people will buy.

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Modern boats with plumb bows and fat transoms are designed to to meet the market. i.e. much more interior volume for the chardonnay/dock party set. here is nothing wrong with that, they just build what people will buy.

Here's a picture of Rocket Science. She has the aforementioned plum bow and carries her beam way aft. I can say unequivocally that she was not designed with the interior as a priority! These hull forms work better on almost all points of sail, that's why they're around. Interior is a bonus, but it's not the primary driver of design. Do you think 'Comanche' has the hull form that she does for any reason other than performance?

Very little in the way of Chardonnay and parties on our ride!

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Here's a picture of Rocket Science. She has the aforementioned plum bow and carries her beam way aft. I can say unequivocally that she was not designed with the interior as a priority! These hull forms work better on almost all points of sail, that's why they're around. Interior is a bonus, but it's not the primary driver of design. Do you think 'Comanche' has the hull form that she does for any reason other than performance?

Very little in the way of Chardonnay and parties on our ride!

The exception that proves the rule against thousands of euro boats

[TJ D]

Well, I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to Euro boats, but my point holds. These boats are being designed with this kind of hull primarily because they sail better, flatter and faster, especially off the wind than their aged sisters. And, let's face it, most cruising, if done on normal routes during the normal season, is primarily an off the wind endeavor.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Here's a picture of Rocket Science. She has the aforementioned plum bow and carries her beam way aft. I can say unequivocally that she was not designed with the interior as a priority! These hull forms work better on almost all points of sail, that's why they're around. Interior is a bonus, but it's not the primary driver of design. Do you think 'Comanche' has the hull form that she does for any reason other than performance?

Very little in the way of Chardonnay and parties on our ride!

It's certainly a fast design, but after spending a week and a half slamming upwind in a chop with wave-lengths perfectly timed to pound the hull, and my bunk in the bow, in a similar boat, I don't mind my slow, well-heeled CCA boat at all!

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by Don C L

It's certainly a fast design, but after spending a week and a half slamming upwind in a chop with wave-lengths perfectly timed to pound the hull, and my bunk in the bow, in a similar boat, I don't mind my slow, well-heeled CCA boat at all!

You're right, slamming upwind is the biggest drawback of these boats. On RS, it's been largely mitigated by making her very narrow at the waterline up forward. Our hull is heavily flared up there. We rarely slam. But, there's a bit of a compromise there, as there is with everything. We don't have quite the same planing downwind performance (she wanders a little) as a true sled. But, the sleds are almost unlivable upwind, so we're happy enough with our configuration. While we were on the West coast, I had occasion to talk to a number of Transpac crews after they got back from the race. They don't enjoy the trip back, that's for sure.

If I were planning to do most of my cruising upwind, I would not own this boat. But, on the other hand, I wouldn't be cruising at all if it involved mostly upwind work! Beating sucks offshore. In any boat.

Anyway, to each their own. I view this shortcoming as a small price to pay for overall performance. But, we don't sail to a schedule, and we are rarely sailing upwind. I'd rather wait and have a fast reach. And, since we can easily do 200 mile days, sometimes closer to 300, we usually have the ability to finesse our point of sail with weather routing.

And, honestly, crossing the Atlantic in 8 days and change is really just a hell of a lot of fun! I come from more traditional boats, and I will never go back to them, ever.

[Don C L]

Yeah, don't get me wrong. I love going fast. Its just that it seems everywhere I want to go is always upwind.
Why is that?

[Paul L]

The overhangs make for a really sweet looking boat in my eyes. I owned an Alberg 35 for many years. The excessive heel, small volume, and wet ride offshore did not make for a comfortable or fast boat. A modern design is faster and more comfortable offshore, even in tough conditions.

[Copacabana]

TJ D, can't you just slow the boat down a bit to reduce the pounding when going to windward?
Beautiful boat by the way!

[44'cruisingcat]

The "reserve buoyancy" argument is a laugh.

For a given length of boat, raked bows have LESS buoyancy.

It's pretty obvious. To convert a plumb bow to a raked bow, you'd have to cut off some boat.

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by Copacabana

TJ D, can't you just slow the boat down a bit to reduce the pounding when going to windward?
Beautiful boat by the way!

Yes, of course. We don't drive hard to weather, typically. But, we don't pound that much on our boat. Some of the newer designs seem ot be pretty uncomfortable regardless of speed upwind in a sea, though. It's just the nature of the design.

As I said, we prefer to wait until we have a favorable wind when we can, and then blast to our next stop. We really don't sail upwind very much when we're cruising.

Thanks for the compliment on the boat. We really like her.
TJ

[angelfish2]

Originally Posted by Captndave1

After many thousands of sea miles on many different boats, I will take a cutter rig, clipper bow and reverse transom in the open ocean over any of the "modern" designs. Every boat design is a compromise, seaworthiness and comfort on the open ocean definitely trumps speed. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

I second this....and I'm sticking to it, as well.

[Deltasailor]

Originally Posted by Copacabana

True, the overhang at the bow is good for keeping your anchor from hitting the boat as you bring it up, but a short sprit/anchor platform has the same effect.
It's interesting to see Bob Perry's more recent designs- they have almost plumb bows (with a short anchor platform). I'm not so certain the bow overhangs "cut the seas" better or slam less. Even a plumb bow gains buoyancy as it submerges (it's a "V" shape). If you look at old working craft (Channel cutters etc.) it's interesting to see how they have almost plumb bows. Overhangs, as noted above, came into play because of racing rules (they way they measured and rated boats) and as an aesthetic element.
At any rate, it's hard to make an argument for stern overhangs, unless you appeal to their beauty on older boats.

Stern overhangs once again harp back to racing measurements, once underway the stern drops down into the water thus extending the waterline and hence more speed. (the longer waterline the more speed)