Please explain the advantage of an overhang to a longer waterline?

[Don C L]

Perhaps this thread may be of interest, by way of example. The Rhodes 41, one of the most overhangy, and skinny and deep of its time... and yet some strange old folks really still love 'em.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-a-100465.html

http://sailingmagazine.net/article-8...indliness.html

http://bluewaterboats.org/pearson-41-rhodes/

https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...ew_5844-1.html

As was mentioned, once heeled over there is a lot more boat in the water, and yet it is really not trying to plow a bigger furrow with its narrow beam. A lot of folks don't like to sail on their side, but there is a nice responsiveness to the balance of wind, the ballast and righting moment, and the rocker that rides up more than punches through a wave. Admittedly not as fast as most now, but not necessarily dogs either.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by thomm225

My point on this was the kayak.

My kayak is 16'6" and with a boat with say a 20' LOA and 20' LWL the kayak would be extending into the cockpit area whereas on my boat I have my cockpit totally clear

The other part is the anchor, chain, water tank etc..............and a larger V berth

On top of that, many of us just like the history and attempting to relive it rather than sailing some sort of floating condo

Not sure a kayak was what the OP was talking about.
Enjoying the looks of boat and thus enjoying sailing it is great. Justifing it because it is faster, safer, or whatever than a newer design without facts is something is else.

[Paul L]

[QUOTE=Don C L;2419121]Perhaps this thread may be of interest, by way of example. The Rhodes 41, one of the most overhangy, and skinny and deep of its time... and yet some strange old folks really still love 'em.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-a-100465.html

Forgotten in the quest for speed: reverence for seakindliness

The Pearson Rhodes 41 Sailboat : Bluewaterboats.org

https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...ew_5844-1.html

As was mentioned, once heeled over there is a lot more boat in the water, and yet it is really not trying to plow a bigger furrow with its narrow beam. A lot of folks don't like to sail on their side, but there is a nice responsiveness to the balance of wind, the ballast and righting moment, and the rocker that rides up more than punches through a wave. Admittedly not as fast as most now, but not necessarily dogs either.[/QUOTE]

A restored Rhodes 41 is really a pretty boat in my eye. Not sure you can really describe it fairly as fast. It rates around 170 PHRF. That is the equivalent of one of the slower Benetaus 10 feet shorter, like an Oceanus 311.

[Don C L]

[QUOTE=Paul L;2419179]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Perhaps this thread may be of interest, by way of example. The Rhodes 41, one of the most overhangy, and skinny and deep of its time... and yet some strange old folks really still love 'em.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-a-100465.html

Forgotten in the quest for speed: reverence for seakindliness

The Pearson Rhodes 41 Sailboat : Bluewaterboats.org

https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...ew_5844-1.html

As was mentioned, once heeled over there is a lot more boat in the water, and yet it is really not trying to plow a bigger furrow with its narrow beam. A lot of folks don't like to sail on their side, but there is a nice responsiveness to the balance of wind, the ballast and righting moment, and the rocker that rides up more than punches through a wave. Admittedly not as fast as most now, but not necessarily dogs either.[/QUOTE]

A restored Rhodes 41 is really a pretty boat in my eye. Not sure you can really describe it fairly as fast. It rates around 170 PHRF. That is the equivalent of one of the slower Benetaus 10 feet shorter, like an Oceanus 311.

Well, I just said it wasn't a dog, not that it was super fast. Besides, can the Beneteau do double duty as an ice-breaker too?

[Paul L]

[QUOTE=Don C L;2419206]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Well, I just said it wasn't a dog, not that it was super fast. Besides, can the Beneteau do double duty as an ice-breaker too?

Not even close. I'd go with a ferrocement hull for that. It won't ride up on the bergs like the Rhodes overhang will and is great bang for your buck

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Not sure a kayak was what the OP was talking about.
Enjoying the looks of boat and thus enjoying sailing it is great. Justifing it because it is faster, safer, or whatever than a newer design without facts is something is else.

Without facts?

Have you read any books on what makes a boat seaworthy in the past 40 years?

If not check out a few from the library. They can explain it much better than I can

Or look at most any offshore boat list and you will see quite a few boats build very similar to mine with the overhangs on those lists ......

Actually the Bristol 27 itself is listed on several...........

The kayak was to show the extra space available on these old style boats that are not only seaworthy but are pleasing to the eye

[Kahala]

I agree with Terra Nova. Reserve buoyancy, keeps boat drier, grace & charm factor, etc.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

It has more to do with racing rules from the past than it does deliberate attempts to make boats that are more seaworthy. That, and a lot of people prefer the looks of a boat with some overhang.

Bingo.

You can still have wide foredecks with a plumb bow. You also don't have to have a flat bottom hull to get a plumb bow. Don't confuse other design criteria with other designs that happen to come with a plumb bow.

Most claiming benefits to overhangs compare boats of equal waterline length not equal overall length. Hardly anyone goes out and measures boats unless it's an extreme situation so a 2-3' bowsprit doesn't add cost at the marina. Also purchase prices tend to correspond to the hull length not the water line length.

The overhang usually doesn't provide much in the way of interior space as it's very shallow from keel to deck in the overhang.

Other than people who like the traditional look, there is very little to recommend a plumb bow.

[Don C L]

[QUOTE=valhalla360

Other than people who like the traditional look, there is very little to recommend a plumb bow.[/QUOTE]

Did you mean to say raked bow there?

I think it is useful in comparing designs with long overhangs to those with with none in terms of their water lines, not LOA. Even with the volume added bow and stern, it is best not to use it for stowing anything but light things; the weight needs to be stowed amidships or you exacerbate the rocking or hobby horsing that can come from a hull with a good deal of rocker. If you compare the Rhodes 41 to a more modern 35 foot, or even 32foot boat, but not a sled, in terms of performance and space available, it may be more useful and instructive. But most folks will balk at paying for a 40 foot slip for a 32 foot boat. And keep in mind that as she heels, the waterline stretches, altering speed and response to seas. And I would say if you get a chance to sail in one, see how it is to sail for a while at 20 or 25 degrees in that shape of hull. You might like it!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Did you mean to say raked bow there?

I think it is useful in comparing designs with long overhangs to those with with none in terms of their water lines, not LOA. Even with the volume added bow and stern, it is best not to use it for stowing anything but light things; the weight needs to be stowed amidships or you exacerbate the rocking or hobby horsing that can come from a hull with a good deal of rocker. If you compare the Rhodes 41 to a more modern 35 foot, or even 32foot boat, but not a sled, in terms of performance and space available, it may be more useful and instructive. But most folks will balk at paying for a 40 foot slip for a 32 foot boat. And keep in mind that as she heels, the waterline stretches, altering speed and response to seas. And I would say if you get a chance to sail in one, see how it is to sail for a while at 20 or 25 degrees in that shape of hull. You might like it!

No, some people find long overhangs pretty. Didn't say I do.

No one is disagreeing that as you heel one of these old boats over the WL increases but that's not a benefit. It's simply a way to game the old rules.

If you want to compare boats by LWL, you quickly run into the issue that long overhang boats are massively overpriced because the prices tend to correlate to the LOA...and you see very few modern boats with massive overhangs as they cost almost the same to build as an equivalent plumb bow boat of the same length and you get the speed benefits of the full WL length regardless of heel.

I think we are seeing a shift where there are fewer racers buying large cruising boats and the benefits of racing designs are phasing out (in particular the effects of the old rules that favored overhangs). Of course, this will take a long time as even the non-racers have seen overhangs of various amount forever and the used boat market is full of them and will be for a long time. For many a long overhang looks right because that's what they've seen for decades. In 40yrs, our kids will see the stray old boat with 5' overhangs and it will look strange to them. It will be a slow evolution.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Without facts?

Have you read any books on what makes a boat seaworthy in the past 40 years?

If not check out a few from the library. They can explain it much better than I can

Or look at most any offshore boat list and you will see quite a few boats build very similar to mine with the overhangs on those lists ......

Actually the Bristol 27 itself is listed on several...........

The kayak was to show the extra space available on these old style boats that are not only seaworthy but are pleasing to the eye

Your Bristol is a nice boat. I'm sure it will do just fine offshore. Most boats do fine. The point I was making is that long overhang CCA style boats are not near as fast as modern designs, so why tout speed as one of their benefits? They have lots of other benefits, like good value. A Bristol 27 is something like 220-240 PHRF and Benetau 265 is 180-190.
Many say these designs are more comfortable in rough conditions. That just hasn't been my experience and I owned an Alberg 35 for 15 years.

[markpierce]

Have a blunt, full bow on my sail-assisted motor boat. When confronting steep, 4-5-foot waves the boat "bucks" and throws heavy spray over the pilothouse, so I slow from normal speed of 6.3 knots to 5. Still, forward cabin and foredeck are relatively roomy. The SS bow plate helps protect the hull from the anchor.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Your Bristol is a nice boat. I'm sure it will do just fine offshore. Most boats do fine. The point I was making is that long overhang CCA style boats are not near as fast as modern designs, so why tout speed as one of their benefits? They have lots of other benefits, like good value. A Bristol 27 is something like 220-240 PHRF and Benetau 265 is 180-190.
Many say these designs are more comfortable in rough conditions. That just hasn't been my experience and I owned an Alberg 35 for 15 years.

You must have gotten me mixed up with some of the others.

I would never try and say my boat was fast with it's short LWL and low aspect ratio sails etc

My first 15 years on sailboats was racing. (beach cats mostly along the gulf coast with PHRF around 65)

Not only is my boat not fast it simply will not point!

But for what I'm using it for it works and it was basically a gift at a cost of $2,000 ( estate sale)

I now have maybe $8,500 in it (over these last 6 years) but it's still worth that and probably much more.

I have done no structural repairs to it since I've owed it, and it has no soft spots. It spent most of it's 42 years in cold waters (Massachusetts)

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by thomm225

You must have gotten me mixed up with some of the others.

I would never try and say my boat was fast with it's short LWL and low aspect ratio sails etc

My first 15 years on sailboats was racing. (beach cats mostly along the gulf coast with PHRF around 65)

Not only is my boat not fast it simply will not point!

But for what I'm using it for it works and it was basically a gift at a cost of $2,000 ( estate sale)

I now have maybe $8,500 in it (over these last 6 years) but it's still worth that and probably much more.

I have done no structural repairs to it since I've owed it, and it has no soft spots. It spent most of it's 42 years in cold waters (Massachusetts)

We are in agreement, they are good value.

[Don C L]

Not sure if these clips might help, but they were he best ones I could find in a hurry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFjdgPgHllU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar6tQUVuLxo