Production Mono's - Any to avoid?

[nortonscove]

Just make sure you have a good look at the ones you are interested in. Any boat that has suffered a grounding or any other calamity for that matter should be left where it is. Determine what you want and search for it.

[Elie]

In my opinion, and experience, I would say that large volume production boats like Jeanneau and Bénéteau and others production boats are very well designed, the interiors splendidly made , full of ameneties , and the deck harware absolutly first class... But, some times builders try to save in materials where it is hard to see: The floor liners, that support the keel and add rigidity to the hull are often source of much trouble. Idem for the other structural liners. Some serious builders like the Italian Grand Soleil, the Danish X Boats include a galvanized steel backbone where engine bed, keel, shrouds are solidly attached. That is such an improvement that speaks volume about the fundamental quality of these boats. On the other hand, some Bavaria suffered huge keel problems, and some recent Bénéteau simply sank in mid Atlantic in storm after the keel was torn off by waves...

[gonesail]

Originally Posted by Elie

some recent Bénéteau simply sank in mid Atlantic in storm after the keel was torn off by waves.

that would be a bolted on keel of course. even high end boats like Oyster have had keel failures. once the keel drops off you have immediate and often fatal results. molded keels with lead inside are far safer but more expensive to build

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Elie

On the other hand, some Bavaria suffered huge keel problems, and some recent Bénéteau simply sank in mid Atlantic in storm after the keel was torn off by waves...

The Bavaria keel problem was the racing match 40 series wasn't it? rather than the cruiser class of yachts.

Cheeky Rafiki sank because she had multiple hard groundings during her life and was subject to a major repair. Finally the coding inspections were not carried out after the last grounding which may have identified the problem. Your assertation that the waves were the cause may not be correct.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Pete

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by gonesail

that would be a bolted on keel of course. even high end boats like Oyster have had keel failures. once the keel drops off you have immediate and often fatal results. molded keels with lead inside are far safer but more expensive to build

Can you please name a current European manufacturer who has a molded keel with lead inside it?

[Hoodsail]

UFO,
No information from me on specific boat recommendations or no-recommendation, but would suggest reading the 1987 book (Desirable & Undesirable characteristics of offshore yachts) published by the technical committee of the cruising club of america, edited by john rousmaniere. Some of its chapter headings are; hull design/construction, on deck/below, spars/rigging/sails/ auxiliary equip, and finally five good boats. Altho over 30 yrs since published the physics havent changed...good luck in your hunt. dave

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Pete7

The Bavaria keel problem was the racing match 40 series wasn't it? rather than the cruiser class of yachts.

Cheeky Rafiki sank because she had multiple hard groundings during her life and was subject to a major repair. Finally the coding inspections were not carried out after the last grounding which may have identified the problem. Your assertation that the waves were the cause may not be correct.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Pete

Hey Peter, why let the truth get in the way of a great story? I hear this rubbish quite regularly, someone says it then another repeats and before you know it actually happened!

I had a guy recently on a old be of **** mainly due to neglect tell me my Catalina is not a bluewater boat, I just laugh, don't even point out it's crossed three oceans now and is still in very good condition.

[Elie]

European Economic Union has a modern classification of boat for offshore service. This classification do not consider incapsulated ballast as a desirable caracteristic of offshore boat. Well conceived boats with external ballast with an adequately supported keel will be very safe in any sea condition offshore. In fact the incapsulated ballast are simply a remnant of traditional boats building when finite element design tool, computers and modern composite techniques and materials where missing. These techniques now permit the design of light(faster) , and very strong boats , as all the the modern offshore racers demonstrate it...

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by Elie

European Economic Union has a modern classification of boat for offshore service. This classification do not consider incapsulated ballast as a desirable caracteristic of offshore boat. Well conceived boats with external ballast with an adequately supported keel will be very safe in any sea condition offshore. In fact the incapsulated ballast are simply a remnant of traditional boats building when finite element design tool, computers and modern composite techniques and materials where missing. These techniques now permit the design of light(faster) , and very strong boats , as all the the modern offshore racers demonstrate it...

I agree with you about encapsulated keels vs bolt on. Stainless steel is a much better material to handle tension forces than fibreglass. External ballast has been around since the time of the wooden schooners, so nothing new in this.

I do not give much for the CE marking, though. ABS or Lloyds classification IS a proof of build quality. CE is not.

[BenBowSirocco]

It seems silly to me that a boat that goes aground should be so easily damaged and subsequently have to be avoided.

In my composite work I have been called out to do emergency/temporary repairs on composite rudder shafts, and in-hull support structure. Both cases were unsupported spade rudders on productions boats and both a result of anchor dragging in moderate to near gale conditions (35-45kn winds) leaving the boat disabled and dangerous to move without assistance.The result was of course forced long term cruise interruption and expensive temporary/technical repairs done in difficult/inadequate conditions.

These experiences and researched accounts of others has resulted in that I would personally prefer a boat with either a full skeg supported or a flip up style rudder. I would say keel supported, but none of the boats your interested in so far are of that style.

Bolt on keels are not the problem, surrounding structural design is, just search for any known failures of the design and check if you need to re-torque the bolts on any sort of schedule, and what they should be torque to to begin with in order to check them. Some cannot be checked for a number of reasons, some can. Seems a good thing to look at during the survey if possible

Sure, its a more robust design to encapsulate the ballast in the bottom of a keel that is a part of the hull as a whole. This has lots of structural advantages to the hull. But its complexity means its really expensive and difficult.
Think about making a good layup schedule in the tail end of today's foil shaped keel designs, or the bulb for that matter would require very small and dexterous circus trained contortionists. Perhaps hung down by their ankles.. (jokes)

[Sea Wings]

Personally I would avoid all those names - Research the target markets for all the brands you have listed and then compare your intended use against the design target market. The brands listed are great for what they were or are designed for but if you honestly have 300K to play with then do some more homework.... There are lots of very good pointers in the thread responses so far and yes many of those brands have made ocean crossings and yes some of those brands have had great race history but compare apples with apples and each brand will have a boat specific to use - similar in cars - a Ford Mustang is not a Ford Fiesta and neither are a Ford Falcon and then is a Ford Falcon the same across the whole Falcon range? If I had £300K and went back to a mono then I would be looking at an early Nautor Swan.... My favorite by far is the Wharram Pahi catamarans - absolutely brilliant cats that can be fixed anywhere and you will still have loads of cash left over to cruise the world.

[Sea Wings]

If you really have $300 and want the best cruising cat available
- make an offer..... https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2...dard%20listing

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Can you please name a current European manufacturer who has a molded keel with lead inside it?

That would be pretty much none and same for worldwide manufacturers unless they are targeting the potential buyers who reminisce about full keels and days gone by.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by wingssail

That would be pretty much none and same for worldwide manufacturers unless they are targeting the potential buyers who reminisce about full keels and days gone by.

Full keeled boats are still being manufactured by Island Packet, Cabo Rico, and Cape George. Certainly not to the production numbers of the big three (Catalina, Beneteau, and Hunter) but to a smaller market favoring well constructed Bluewater boats.

The below was taken from the Cabo Rico web site, ostensibly written by SAIL Magazine, that provides some valid counter thoughts to the current popularity of modern production designs used for passagemaking...its all a matter of tradeoffs.

PS...Don't kill the messenger.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

​

Some general thoughts about Cruising Sailboats

Cabo Rico hull designs are different from most every other boat on the market. Most of what you will see are fin or fin/bulb keel boats so why are CR Marine’s Cabo Rico hulls designed this way?

Almost all “cruising” boats today are based on racing hull designs. The reason builders do this are as follows:

The boats are spirited to sail in the 5 to 15 knot winds and the 2 to 3 foot chop that most casual sailors go out in.

The small deep fin keels improve pointing ability some and allow faster tacking in evening and weekend club races.

The designs are wide and relatively flat to gain initial stability and speed in lighter air. This gives the marketing benefit of larger looking interiors.

These designs are much cheaper to mold and build due to their simple rounded shape and cast external keels that simply bolt on.

All this sounds good, so why isn’t it?

Like all racing machines, so called “modern “ keel boat hulls are demanding to operate and tend towards dangerous if they are not in their ideal conditions.

Try taking a formula one Ferrari out on country roads. If it keeps running, it won’t meet its performance specifications by a long shot. Or take an America’s Cup 12 meter mono hull yacht out in 25+ knots of wind and 10-12 foot seas. No big deal with the proper design, but those cup boats will have already had to go home.

Whether we intend to or not, we all get caught in less than ideal conditions. You should feel safe, be comfortable and still go fast. Only a Cabo Rico will do that for you, and in style as well.

The “modern” cruising hulls, with their “U” sections forward and flatter sections amidships, will pound to weather. Their plumb bows will allow a great deal of water onboard and their lack of reserve buoyancy will cause their bows to bury into larger waves. This is sometimes known as submarining. Wet, uncomfortable and down right scary, especially if it turns into a broach.

A Cabo Rico doesn’t do that. Her clipper bow is simply the best for any sailing out side all out racing or the “casual” weather window. Waves are sent way out to the side so they doesn’t come onboard, and you will probably never bury the bow due to the large amount of reserve buoyancy up high.

Her slender sections forward mean she doesn’t pound to weather and due to her one piece construction and strong scantlings there is no hull flexing, no hull delamination, and no parting bulkheads in rough conditions, unlike many boats built today. Even our interior doors open and close properly in bad conditions, regardless of the tack you are on.

Those wide hull forms also contribute to rapidly decreasing stability in storm conditions. Note the loss of 2 boats, a Beneteau 38 and a 43, and resultant loss of lives, on the Bay of Biscay a while back. Also of concern are the very wide transoms on many boats today that present too much reserve buoyancy to a following sea, and when combined with the pinched, plumb bows can lead to a life threatening broach.

CR Marine believes you deserve to sail quickly, but in comfort and safety and to be able to also return in good shape.

Cabo Rico models can have excellent performance in those light fluky airs that seem to occur 50% of the time you’re out sailing. Ask a naval architect. He or she will tell you heavier boats go faster in light air. It has to do with the extra sail area they can carry as well as momentum. While a light boat may start up faster it also stops faster. But with a Cabo Rico you don’t slow down quickly and the tracking ability of our longer keel designs means you are still on the right heading when the next puff comes along and with that momentum, you are also still moving.

A Cabo Rico hull is very expensive to build because it includes the keel and is built in one piece, not 2 halves taped seamed together at the center line. The whole hull mold must be rotated side to side with each layer of laminate. That’s time consuming. Having to laminate down through the long keel portion is not easy. It costs more. But at CR Marine, we feel that the end result is worth the effort, and so are our customers.

Integral to hull and keel design is the rudder. Boats designed for racing and “cruising” fin keel boats have their rudders hung far astern to achieve the most leverage and turning force for fast tacking around the marks. This has the disadvantage of the rudder getting air and loosing steerage, particularly downwind in rougher conditions, and the helmsman loosing control of the vessel. This is why the racing versions of these hull need two rudders, so one is always more deeply immersed in the water being on the down wind side.

These rudders are only attached where they enter the hull and at their top most point. They are therefore very vulnerable to damage and total loss of steerage should the boat hit a submerged object or run aground. Some brands help to support the rudder with a skeg having a bearing part way down the rudder stock. This support helps, but the added risk is damage to these thin skegs, thus jamming them against the rudder making it inoperable. Why anyone would want to venture out of range of Coast Guard assistance with an exposed rudder that can so easily render you helpless if you hit anything, is imprudent at best and foolhardy at worst.

At Cabo Rico we believe in attaching the rudder to the aft end of the keel, making it almost impossible to damage the rudder in a way as to loose steerage. They don’t get bent, jammed up or fall off. Indeed Cabo Rico has never lost a rudder at sea in our near 50 year history!

It is amazing the other short cuts that almost all builders use to save costs and increase profits, and of which their customers are completely unaware. For example, most do not glass the main structural bulkhead to the deck anymore. To save time and money they use a full deck liner bedded in epoxy putty to the underside of the deck. The bulkheads then land in a notch in the liner, and they bed that in epoxy putty as well. In light use, this is fine but in rough conditions, with higher stresses and pounding, their lightly constructed hulls start to flex pushing the center of the deck up and sometimes rent the bulkhead right out.

Another of many compromises are the very large cockpits that are poorly supported below, creating a problem if a large wave comes down on you; in some cases actually pushing the sole right through the deck. Add to that wide cockpits that allow you to fall about, main sheet tackles that pass through it threatening limb or life, low backed seats that leave you aching after a while, and you will soon appreciate the many sea-going capabilities of your Cabo Rico.

“....an ultimate Bluewater Boat”
SAIL Magazine

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by wingssail

That would be pretty much none and same for worldwide manufacturers unless they are targeting the potential buyers who reminisce about full keels and days gone by.

Encapsulated keels were only an exception in time. On old wooden boats, keels were bolted on, on modern fibreglass boats keels are bolted on. This has been a proven method for 120 years+. Why would any manufacturer choose anything else?