Prospective purchasers lament

[BC Mike]

We are next door to WA and AB, which is Washington State and Alberta. Alberta is currently one of the richest places anywhere
( zero debt and $$ in the bank and oil and gas reserves ) we tell our neighbours BC stands for Bring Cash.
Michael

[Boracay]

I went and looked at another boat today. An unfinished Roberts 43 in the water.
I am sure that there are many problems but the first one is the engine, a Lees (according to the broker) 6 cyl. 100hp Ford.
It has a new expensive battery and some cans of starter fluid next to it.
What could I expect to find?

A good engine bed for the repower

[CaptainK]

A sailboat racers dream!!

For K's benefit, I will elaborate. Unfinished boat probably means the engine has been sitting allot. Likely, bad seals. THe new battery and starting fuid means he was probaly trying to get it to run right for the sale. Likely, the owner is not a diesel expert, and probably sprayed the starter fluid directly into the intake. Glow plugs are now junk. The Ford Leman would not be my first choice, but some people like them. Old technology. Bottom line is, I would not leave the harbor with the engine that is in the boat, and I would not invest the money to rebuild it.

[Jeff H]

The engine in question is probably a 95 hp Ford Lehman. These were a great engine; generally considered reliable, robust with reasonably priced parts. They are pretty reasonable to rebuild and is a good choice for an engine in a boat that size and weight.

The boat itself probably is not as good as the engine. I am assuming that this is an older Mauritius 43, which was not an especially good design. I actually think that the 434A, that replaced the 432 and early Bruce Roberts 43 designs, is one of his better designs.

The other issue will be verifying the quality of the workmanship of an amatuer builder.

Jeff

[Alan Wheeler]

There is a "Lees" Ford. It was from a company here in NZ called Lees Engineering. They worked solely with Ford engines and built everthing from Forklifts to Tractor cranes and they produced parts for building a marinized engine. There gear was often painted yellow, but don't rule that out if yours is not.
Anyway's, no matter what the engine is, if it is an old Ford Diesel, it will be one of the most reliable workhorses you will ever come across. As Jeff said, parts are so cheap. The only disadvantage is the weight to hp. But if the weight is not an issue, which for that boat it won't be, then it will be a good engine.
They are very hard to start from cold. You probably won't find glow plugs on these. You need a good cranking speed, so a very good start battery is essential. Mostly they will fire straight up with good start speed. But slightly sluggish, and the only way you can start it, is to use the decompression lever. Get some cranking speed up and slowly bring the lever down, don't just drop it.
Ether was another way to start these, but not a safe product to use in a confined space.
If it has sat for some time, then you may find it is still fine. You need to get a large wrench onto the front pulley and ensure the motor turns. Just a little movement is all you need. Don't expect to turn it far, they are heavey bruts to move. If it turns, then crank away and see if she starts. Then take a good look at the exhaust. It may start smokey, that's the norm for these things. They take a while to heat up enough to allow the fuel to burn correctly. Expect a little black smoke, these engines were not built for emision regulations of today.
As for relaibility, these things are the, get you home, type engines. If you can get it started, it will run when half the engine is just about lying in the bottom of the crankcase. I have seen these engines start and smoke so bad, that the Marina has disappeared in smoke. And I am not joking, that's the truth. Yet the engine still runs just fine.
The area I would be more worried about is the gearbox and shaftgear etc.

[Charlie]

Ok I just found this thread and read thru it all. Quite interesting. I am trying to comprehend the depreciation on boats. I did a search on Yachtworld. Set a price and a length. 35' to 45' and a price of $125k. On that list I found tons of Catalina's, Benetaus, Hunters, and then other boats. you can get a 2004 Hunter 36 for $125k or a 1976 Heritage 37 for $12k.

Quality boat is pretty hard to define but I will choose Swan as an example of a quality boat b/c I am interested in one. There are three for sale on the West Coast of the US. All three in SF Bay Area.

Swan 371 1980 $95k
Swan 41 1976 $115K
Swan 43 1971 $109k

The Swan 41 has nice upgraded electonics, teak deck that were replaced in 1997, New engine in 1991 (1350 hrs), 4/06 survey says that replacement value is $375k. A large inventory of sails -- some new . mkt value was said to be $125k.

Swan 371 newer Holland design boat. not as nice electronics, less cruising equipment on board smaller boat.

Swan 43 oldest boat. no teak decks. pictures make it look older yet.

What conclusions are we to draw from the asking price of these boats. All three boats are about 30 years old and there prices have stuck at around $100k.

Bells and whistles don't make too much difference in price Swan 41 has $10k to $12k of electronics on it and is newer than the Swan 43 and there is only a $6k difference in asking price.

New (2004) Hunter 36 is for sale with an asking price of $125k. 1995 Beneteau Oceanis 40 1995 for just under $125k.

Hunters and Beneteaus have lost approximatley 1/2 there value in about ten years. Swan 41 has actually gone up in value. In 1977 they were selling new for around $70k and now they are selling for $115k. (personally I'd rather have $70k in 1977 as opposed to $115k now. Could have bought two houses in SF outright with $70k. Now $115k isn't even a twenty % down on the same houses. No inflation. Yeah right.) I read an article on the Swan 41 that said in 1985 there were six Swan 41's on the market in the world ranging in price from $115k to $166k. Today on the world market the prices are the same. They are not the same dollars b/c of inflation.

I'm thinking that if you buy quality then when/if you sell you are more likely to recoup your money. Whatever goes into electronics, sails, and do dads for the boat is a maintenance cost and will not be recouped or maybe just at pennies on the dollar.

Please Poke holes in my logic. I am thinking of buying a Swan. The Admiral thinks that we would lose the same amount of money buying an inexpensive boat or a quality boat. In the mean time we could sail a nice albeit older boat.


PS:
There is the chance of making money or at least breaking even by buying the boat here on the West Coast of the US and selling it in Europe where the more expensive Swans are located. Don't know if I buy it and there are so many curve balls with exchange rates and such but who knows?

[Boracay]

Thanks, Alan, for your comments.
Yeah, the boat is an interesting one, but it has no (yes, that is a no) interior fitout and to do serious work on a boat in Sydney is a difficult and expensive business.(most of the the old slipways and marine yards have been converted to flats).
The broker was not happy to see me so while I will probably look at it again, (but not for a while) and see if it is possible to complete it within a realistic budget I have serious doubts.
Next problem after the engine is that it is sitting on a mooring and there is no dinghy, so that is an necessary initial purchase.
Anyone have any suggestions for a dinghy that can be operated from the boot of a car?
The price is attractive so it will probably sell before I can make up my mind.

[Talbot]

There is the chance of making money or at least breaking even by buying the boat here on the West Coast of the US and selling it in Europe where the more expensive Swans are located.

You will need to be very careful here. For a start, you will need to pay VAT (at abt 15%), then you will need to get the boat through another process that the EU beureaucrats deem necessary to check that the boat is fitted OK for EU (e.g. VHF CE certified etc) As a 30 yr old boat, you may be able to get away with some of this, but you do need to investigate

(Not an expert, but seen others fall foul of this)

[Charlie]

Thanks Talbot:

We are just looking into it now. I'll look in to that at a later point in the process. Now we are tryting to see if the Swan 41 is a decent cruiser or too much of a racer.