Purchase Offer Considerations

[sardinebreath]

Looking at an estate sale boat that has clearly been sitting in the water a long time. The only one in the family familiar with the boat was the deceased so almost nothing can be provided about maintenance/damage/refit history. The state of the bottom/rudder (5-6 inches of growth) would suggest a high likelihood that the zincs have been gone for quite awhile--maybe multiple years. If I make an offer based only on what my eyes tell me definitely will need replacing/refitting, and then the survey reveals a worst case scenario about all the things I am uncertain but worried about, there is no guarantee that the sellers will be inclined to meet me even halfway on the newly revealed issues--and I would have to eat the cost of the survey. OTOH, if i assume the worst of the unknowns and offer accordingly, it is likely the seller (or, in this case, the seller's broker) will be assuming the best and will therefore probably eschew what seems to them like a lowball. I guess this is a dilemma with any offer but this maybe feels more pointed because it seems reasonable (to me) to expect some unpleasant surprises. I would make it clear beforehand what my offer was taking into consideration and ask if they could think of anything else that might be of concern. But I've heard of several instances where sellers completely disagreed with negative assessments by surveyors and wouldn't budge an inch on significant issues. Just curious about how others have approached similar situations.

Also, seeing as it's been sitting so long in a busy marina with undoubtedly lots of stray current, what is the loss of zincs likely to impact first/most?

Thanks in advance..

[markwesti]

What is the boat ? I ask that because I think that if it is a unique low production boat that has potential and you could get it for below normal price , I would pursue it . I would not expect the seller to cover anything after the sale . I would say that if you want any assurances you would have to have a agreement with the sellers to let you have the boat surveyed and to give you first refusal .

[skipmac]

Here's my take and this comes from someone that has taken on two project boats so I can say been there, done that.

First, you have to decide if this was originally a desirable, high quality boat that would be worthwhile restoring. Then you have do determine if you will get the boat at a price that will justify the time and money you invest to get it back to functional condition.

Unless you have unlimited time and money to throw at it, this boat is going to be a many month, possibly year or more project. Where will you keep the boat for this time and how much will it cost you? If you have to spend $500-$1000/month to keep it at boatyard then very quickly you are going to be underwater on this project. Remember and this is not a joke but is a fact 90% of the time. Any major boat project will take you twice as long and cost twice as much as your best estimate. I have owned and fixed boats for 40 years and have proven that to myself several times over.

Regarding condition, lost zincs are the least of your problems. If it has been unused for many years it's possible the engine is locked up, all pumps dead, wiring corroded, water and fuel tanks full of water, algae and crud and more. Years of barnacle growth on the bottom and the boat sitting unpainted for years greatly increases the chance of hull blisters.

Deck fittings left untended for years could have leaked into the deck core resulting in moisture, rot and delamination.

The very fact that your asking this question leads me to assume your experience and skills in DIY boat restoration are limited. If you can't do a pretty good inspection and evaluation on your own without a surveyor I think you need to ask yourself if you're really equiped for a project like this.

Bottom line, if all the above questions are answered in the best case scenario and it was me doing this I would make a low ball offer (depending on the boat and my personal evaluation maybe a very, very low ball offer) and if the seller turned it down I would walk away.

[chris mac]

We recently looked at a project boat in similar condition. The owner is still alive, but hasn't been to the boat in about 6 years. The story going in was he had someone looking after it, cleaning, running the engines ect.
Once there, I found any rubber parts visible(hoses, ect) were corroding and failing. Same for any metal parts, fan blades were on the floor since the hardware rusted out.
Kinda makes you wonder what the non visible parts are like! We based on a worst case scenario, replace or fix pretty much everything.
Unfortunately the cost would have exceeded the finished value. In that situation I would personally rather spend the money on a more ready to go boat, and be sailing vs restoring.
I would suggest you spend some time on board the boat you are wanting. Take an honest look at its condition, and your own desires. Dig deep on both.
Are you wanting it to restore, or is this appealing just because it makes you a boat owner sooner.
Good luck, I know it's a tough call.

As to the question of offer, I would offer low based on worst case condition. My guess is they have no emotional attachment to it, just want it gone, and don't want to be going back and forth after the survey.

[sardinebreath]

"If you can't do a pretty good inspection and evaluation on your own without a surveyor I think you need to ask yourself if you're really equiped for a project like this."

Of what can be seen, I think I have a pretty good idea of what is needed. It's really not that bad. The engine purportedly starts right up and runs great--I guess there has been a caretaker running it regularly even though it hasn't moved. Deck seems solid. It just needs everything else: running rigging, standing rigging, sails, anchors, AP, instruments, bottom job, etc. Money, in other words. I am capable of making those calculations and, if it comes to that, installations. I just worry about what I can't see; especially the corrosion that will have taken place without zincs. But if that isn't as potentially a big deal as I'm thinking, then I might feel comfortable proceeding.

Not a low production boat and I doubt I'm going to be able to get a great bargain because the ask is currently more in line with something a great deal more turn-key. But I can run the numbers and make an offer accordingly and see what happens.

[dwedeking2]

I purchased an estate sail boat. I went in with the thought that i had a good hull and sails. I came out a little better than that... But not much. I bought the boat for 1/3 for what a ready to go version can be found online. If I'm lucky I'll break even when done, but that was set as a good outcome before purchase.

Put the liquor store and therapist on speed dial... Some days can be frustrating.

[sardinebreath]

Originally Posted by chris mac

I would suggest you spend some time on board the boat you are wanting. Take an honest look at its condition, and your own desires. Dig deep on both.
Are you wanting it to restore, or is this appealing just because it makes you a boat owner sooner.
Good luck, I know it's a tough call.

Yeah, good points. I know that fixer uppers often don't end up being cheaper even without factoring the sweat equity. And sooner to own may not be sooner to sail.

"Bottom line, if all the above questions are answered in the best case scenario and it was me doing this I would make a low ball offer (depending on the boat and my personal evaluation maybe a very, very low ball offer) and if the seller turned it down I would walk away."

I agree. I guess I was just wanting to avoid getting turned down. But sometimes getting turned down is the best thing that could happen.

Thanks

[sardinebreath]

Originally Posted by dwedeking2

I purchased an estate sail boat. I went in with the thought that i had a good hull and sails. I came out a little better than that... But not much. I bought the boat for 1/3 for what a ready to go version can be found online. If I'm lucky I'll break even when done, but that was set as a good outcome before purchase.

Put the liquor store and therapist on speed dial... Some days can be frustrating.

LOL That's pretty much the percentage I had in mind but they are unfortunately currently nowhere near that number. Maybe I'll let it sit a while.

[S/V Illusion]

Ignore the lack of clarity on the boat history and condition. Doing so will clear up your confusion when you treat this like any other boat purchase.

Offer what you think they will accept ( or preferably less to allow for negotiation) pending a full survey satisfactory to you. And upon completion of your survey, you gain the clarity presently clouding your decision whereupon you can factually present repair costs the estate will inevitably incur whether they sell to you or anyone else.

As to the survey cost, that's your price to admission for the deal.

[Paul L]

If you are in a position to purchase and this a boat you would like to own, then offer what the boat is worth to you in the known unmaintained condition. Assume it will get past a survey without major items but that you will be fixing many things currently visible and missed in the survey. Don't try and second guess what an estate will want for it or give a rat's ass what the selling broker says. Don't over pay or over offer for a poorly maintained boat. Make the offer contingent on an out of water survey. Tell the broker you will not nickel and dime the seller on the survey. If they accept it and the survey pans out then you've got yourself a project at a good price. If not start looking for a well cared for version.

[sardinebreath]

Many thanks to all for the input. Getting various perspectives helps to open up the tunnel vision a bit. It's odd how much lust can be worked up over a boat. Hard to see clearly with blood in your eyes.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by sardinebreath

Many thanks to all for the input. Getting various perspectives helps to open up the tunnel vision a bit. It's odd how much lust can be worked up over a boat. Hard to see clearly with blood in your eyes.

Ahh yes, boat lust. Most of use have been victims of that disease.

If I read correctly the asking price you think is in the range of a ready to go boat (one of the rarest beasts in the world by the way)? If so the broker and/or family is delusional based on your description of the boat. They might get lucky and find a buyer but I think it likely they will end up sitting on the boat until they get a more realistic take on the market.

If that boat ticks off all your boxes AND you are prepared for all the repairs, time and cost, make a very low offer and sit on it. Don't forget that you will need to pay for this boat to sit in a yard for months and months. From all I read about Socal that can be pretty expensive and will add up quickly so I highly recommend checking this out before going ahead. I took on a project because I had a free place to park the boat close to home. If I had paid a yard it would have been a huge loss.

[farmall.dude]

Sardinebreath,
I can't offer any insight on the boat or it's value, but have an estate sale story for you.
This past summer, I went to an estate sale, on the last day. They were selling a wood lathe and were asking $150 for it. I showed some interest, but wasn't willing to pay that much. It was worth that much, I just didn't need it THAT bad. I walked away, looking at other trinkets. The guy selling the stuff followed me around like a puppy, trying to get me to buy this or that. I picked up a couple small tools, paid and started to leave. As I was getting in the truck, he shouts "Will you give me $25 for it?" I now own a lathe. The Moral of the story is, as others have eluded to: They probably want it gone, don't give a rat's patootie about it emotionally, and will take what they can get to close the estate as soon as possible.

Good Luck!

[Ruso]

Very good discussion.. I am always asking myself: Would I buy a 30-40 years car sitting on someone backyard to restore it to it's original condition? Without having my own car repair shop? Hell no!! If I need a surveyor - I am not going to drag myself into the business of restoring a boat.

[Fore and Aft]

Sardinebreath (love that handle, maybe you should buy a sailing cat and call it that?) If you were in Australia I would lend you my wife. She is very good at knocking those rose coloured glasses of my face and telling me to get real. Heck one time she refused to get out of the car and look at the latest “Gem” I had found.
Worst case there is a badly pitted shaft, corroded prop and massive osmosis blisters below the waterline. Remember sometimes even a free boat can be the most expensive boat on the market.
Cheers