Raising, lowering, reefing from the cockpit.

[Phyrcooler]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

personally, I don't see much value in the lazy jacks, sure, they contain the main while it's dropped, but there is no particular rhyme nor reason, how the main stacks up on the boom, when it's dropped.....especially a main with full battens...it's just a big wad of canvas, flopping around willy-nilly...and a pain to stow away after
occasionally mine doesn’t lay correctly, but it really isn’t much of an issue. Back at the dock I’ll straighten it out a bit and close the sail cover.

this is where I like to pull the main down by hand, and flake it as it comes down, I can control the downward movement of the main with the halyard, whilst flaking it. this simplifies folding the sail over the boom, instead of having a big jumble of canvas to deal with...
I have full canvas, so no real way to patiently flake it over the boom like I’ve done on smaller boats. Plus, difficult to do single handed - unless on a small boat with auto pilot.

but, I freely admit, I'm an old fart, that likes to do things my way....

Cheers -from one old fart to another! Still - feel blessed to still have this opportunity to get out on the water!

Originally Posted by JimsCAL

My current boat (bought 12 years ago) came with a Dutchman system. I immediately became a convert. Makes dropping the main SO much easier, and no issues with catching battens when raising it. Also contains the main on the top of the mast when reefing the main. And once you get it adjusted, no need to touch it.

Disadvantages? Cost is the big one. It's more expensive than lazy jacks due to sail and sail cover modifications. And installing the main and removing it in the fall are more complicated.

When I replaced my main a few years ago there was no question that I would have a Dutchman system installed on it.

I admittedly have never used a Dutchman, but it definitely looks to be the most functional setup

Honestly, when I get to where it’s a struggle, I’ll probably downsize a notch and go with roller furling.

[rondelais]

Plus one on the Dutchman system. I have it on both main and mizzen on my ketch, and it makes it very easy to handle both sails. I do have to raise, lower, and reef the main at the mast, but it is easy - I don’t have to touch the sail, just the halyard. The sail flakes nicely, especially when there is a fair amount of wind over the deck to shake it out. My usual sequence is to remove sail covers and attach halyards at anchor or mooring, hooking the main halyard under the reefing cleat to hold the sail down. I almost always raise the mizzen before departure, and sometimes the main depending on conditions. Then, to raise the main, all I have to do on deck is pull on the halyard. The hardest part in terms of athletics is to winch the last foot or so. When reefing, I often don’t bother with the reefing points, and am thinking of removing them. The Dutchman system seems to keep the flaked portion of the sail under control, although I haven’t tried this in a real blow. I do tend to reef early, to avoid drama. Not tying in the reef points also makes it easy to shake the reef out. The mizzen, of course, is handled completely in the cockpit, and so quite often I just drop the main rather than reef. I agree that having some kind of “sissy bar” pulpit is nice at the base of the mast, and I might do that at some point, and strapping in is essential in any kind of blow. BTW, I’m 78. The only downsides to the Dutchman I have found is that it takes some fooling with the topping lift to make all work well, I do worry about the possibility of one of the nylon guide lines breaking at a bad time, and the slightly greater complexity of bending on and removing sails.

[capn_billl]

WOW, just looked at the Dutchman system.

Why have I never heard of this before in 40 years of boating?

It looks like it makes perfect sense.

[MicHughV]

yep, most every sailor has his/her way of doing things....

Regardless of what I read here, Im unlikely to change my ways. One of the few remaining blessings I have as an old fart.

[gulfcoastsailor]

Piece of cake!
Use the Freedom 32 or 36 as a guide to sailing nirvana 😎

[B_Wieberdink]

I have a fully battened mainsail on my Contest 31. The lower three battens are connected to the topping lift with a ring. When lowering the sail it keeps the most of the sail on/near the boom. I do everithing at the mast because it is much easier and faster, just clip on when leaving the cockpit. (and I am allways solo sailing at age 73)

[DEAN2140]

A friend of mine just swapped his gas engine for an electric set up on his Little Harbor 25. It cost him more than $40K and he has had continuous problems with it...something about the controller. Buyer beware.

[Clivevon]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

I've experienced both...

a)working from the mast.
b)working from the cockpit.

In my humble opinion, hands down, without a doubt, working from the mast is simpler, quicker, more efficient, and it puts you right there. Most of your stuff can be done by hand, with minimum winch work.

Working from the cockpit, requires a profusion of turning blocks, cam cleats, and oodles and oodles of line strewn about everywhere...and pretty much everything needs to done with a winch.

If you're properly clipped on, going to the mast is a simple affair...

If things don't go smoothly, or something jams, gets tangled up, etc, you'll be needing to climb out of the cockpit anyway. This will likely happen often.

You will also have a profusion of lines in the cockpit, they will be there all the time. You will need to color code them. They will end up hanging inside the boat, and under your feet.

If you are uncomfortable working from the mast, you could install some " granny bars" around the base of the mast. If you are not familiar with these, it's a solid handrail pulpit type of thing, that is installed around the base of the mast, that you can brace yourself against, hold on, etc.

I absolutely, totally agree with this. My boat is set up to do everything from the cockpit. Its a pain in the ars*. Lazyjacks are useful though.

[billdre]

So I understand the OP concerns. I'm 74 and want the option of the safest way to handle my sails. I have brought all lines back to the cockpit: main halyard, luff and leach reefing lines, outhaul, vang, Cunningham and also lazy jack lines. The only lines that aren't in the cockpit are the jib and spinnaker halyards. My jib is on a roller furler and doesn't come down until the end of the season. The asymmetrical spinnaker is in a sock and I only use it in really light wind conditions, not the conditions I'm concerned about having trouble on deck.

I like the lazy jack setup for dropping the main and containing it. I can loosen the lazy jack lines from the cockpit but have found the with a little patience the main sail goes up between them with slight adjustments from the helm. I only have two full two battens at the top. If I were single handing I would slack one side to leeward and handle it that way. I also have installed a downhaul on the head of the main sail so I can haul it down beyond a normal free fall. It does mean I have to straighten out the folds back at the marina but that's OK with me.

Attached is a deck shot showing the lines from the mast. I couldn't find one from the cockpit showing the clutches. I put in all the blocks, check blocks, turning blocks, clutches and new winches myself. So it's not hard, it just takes planning where everything will go. My cockpit has simple bungee cord hooks for everything on both sides of the companionway. Its' not a mess. However, keep in mind this is a 28ft. boat so nothing is very big or heavy.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

WOW, just looked at the Dutchman system.

Why have I never heard of this before in 40 years of boating?

It looks like it makes perfect sense.

Dutchman does not work if there is a roach. Lines must run vertically from the topping lift down to the boom.

[capn_billl]

Ah, that explains it. Cats have a very large roach.

[roverhi]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

I absolutely, totally agree with this. My boat is set up to do everything from the cockpit. Its a pain in the ars*. Lazyjacks are useful though.

Running the mainsail control lines was the best improvement I've made to either boat.

I'm another antiquated sailor, 77 in a couple of weeks. Did a solo TransPac at 66. Have to put up with a wife who thinks I'm a doddering fool who shouldn't be allowed out of bed. Both my boats have all the mainsail handling lines led aft except the lazy jacks. Keep the lazy jacks at the mast till they need to be deployed as they always hang up on a batten when raising the sail if deployed. Not a problem deploying as dropping the main is usually done in flat water so it is safe and easy to go up to the mast to deploy. Like the lazy jacks as it makes dousing the main just a matter of releasing the halyard and forgetting about it till I'm in the slip then neatly flaking the sail.

Have double line reefing that is so easy from the cockpit under the dodger. It is so painless have been known to do it just for the fun of it and none of the hesitation involved with reefing at the mast that always made things more exciting. Can hoist the main about 3/4 of the way up and need the winch for the final length. Not a lot different than handling it at the mast.

Sailed many thousands of open ocean miles with reefing at the mast. It was always a battle to reef in the conditions that needed the reef and usually waited too long to reef or shake the reef out figuring a reduction or increase in wind velocity was just a momentary hesitation.

[rondelais]

I have not found a modest roach to be a problem with the Dutchman. One of the tricky things with the Dutchman system is how to get the topping lift right. The vertical nylon control lines run from the topping lift down through grommeted holes in the sail, ending at the foot. The top holes are down the sail far enough that if the topping lift runs inside the roach, it is still well above the holes. The topping lift has to be adjusted so that it is a little more than the length of the straight line from the head to the clew, so it can lie more or less against the sail, and the control lines have to be slightly loose (a few inches of slack seems to work). The slack is taken out in the first fold as the sail comes down. The topping lift is thus slightly slack when the sail is fully raised, and stays on the same side of the sail on both tacks. One downside is that you really can’t use the topping lift to shape the sail to get twist in light air. I suppose that a really big roach as on many catamarans or a square-top sail would make it impossible to use a Dutchman - maybe this is why we usually see them with some sort of stack-pack and lazy jacks.

[JimsCAL]

rondelais is correct. A Dutchman works fine with most sails with a roach. There must of course be a topping lift line running to the top of the mast as the system uses that to support the monofilament lines that run through the sail. And the comments that adjusting the system lines a bit loose when the sail is up is spot on. Essential to avoid snapping the monofilament lines.

.

[MicHughV]

I find that this topics don't lead to any type of consensus.
Sailors generally like what they like or are familiar with...

Sail handling on my first two boats were pretty basic....everything from the mast...
Heck, my first boat still had hank on head sails....

My third boat had everything to the cockpit.....try as I might, this is a struggle for me.