Replacing the wire/rope main halyard

[Bill O]

Thanks Fred for posting your real life experience/usage comparing both wire and synthetic.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Thanks Fred for posting your real life experience/usage comparing both wire and synthetic.

I should add that we have not replaced our standing rigging (rods) with synthetic.

[smj]

Originally Posted by wingssail

We experience both stretch and creep with dyneema.



Stretch:

Our tapered jib and main halyards, 6mm and 8mm respectively, have to be re-tensioned a few minutes after hoisting and initial setting. The mainsail often requires a second re-tensioning later. (The sails show slack luffs which were tight when hoisted.)



Note:Tapered means that the load is born by the dyneema core only. The cover is left on a portion of the line as a chafe and handling aid. The dyneema was sized based on safe working loads compared to the 1/4 wire we previously had used as standard on the boat.



Creep:

Our 6mm and 4mm dyneema lifelines have crept over time. I stretch them tight with multi-part lashings and I have learned to put the dyneema on with plenty of room for further tightening. After several days to a few weeks I have had to take up the lashings a few times. This creep occurs with no exceptional usage or pressure other than 4 rather heavy fenders hanging on the lifelines.



For over 30 years this boat had wire/rope halyards and wire lifelines. Neither stretch or creep was evident.



Useful life:

Wire lasts longer than dyneema, in my experience. I carry a spool of 6mm dyneema single braid (no cover) to use for replacements if needed, and it has been. I recently replaced my upper lifelines after 5 years due to evident wear and UV degradation. I have also broken two dyneema halyards most likely due to poor splices.



The wire halyards we used previously needed replacing after about 100 races. Under typical cruising usage their useful life seemed limitless.



The wire lifelines lasted at least 20 years.



Despite these disadvantage I prefer the dyneema for ease of use and its light weight. We saved about 150lbs aloft when we switched to tapered dyneema. The foredeck crew likes it because it is not subject to meathooks.



Note2: Our boat originally used wire/rope jib sheets, spinnaker guys, and all running rigging, including halyards and lifelines. Only the advent of stronger rope allowed us to change to rope for the running rigging and spectra and dyneema has allowed us to further change to lighter ropes and lines. The loads on an IOR two tonner in heavy weather are awesome but the new material is exceptionally strong.

So you based the size of your dyneema halyards on the working loads that would equal your 1/4” wire halyards? If that’s the case then no doubt the dyneema would stretch more. I’ve been under the impression that one bases their dyneema sizing on the stretch being equal to the wire that’s being replaced, which would make the dyneema significantly stronger but a larger diameter.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by smj

So you based the size of your dyneema halyards on the working loads that would equal your 1/4” wire halyards? If that’s the case then no doubt the dyneema would stretch more. I’ve been under the impression that one bases their dyneema sizing on the stretch being equal to the wire that’s being replaced, which would make the dyneema significantly stronger but a larger diameter.

That could be a better approach but when I did this I was unaware of the stretch that could occur as I didn't really have good figures on the loads which my sails would put on the halyards. My mistake, but not untypical of how I do things; When there is no-one around to tell me how to do it, I just do it. Sometimes I get it wrong.

But the objective of my change to dyneema was to reduce weight without sacrificing strength. Bigger dyneema would give me less stretch and more strength (which I didn't need) but also double the weight.

So I kept the weight savings at maximum and have to deal with a little stretch. I think it's the best solution for me.

By the way, the creep I observe with the lifelines is interesting: they elongate over time with very little tension placed on them, just a few lbs. The halyards which experience much higher loads do not appear to have elongated at all.

[Rustic Charm]

I’m in the same boat ���� well different boat but same situation.

I recently purchased a new sloop that has a stainless cable main sheet, which the bottom half of rope. I’ve booked it into the rigger to pull the mast and replace it with rope.. and to do some other works and inspections.

[psk125]

Originally Posted by wingssail

The halyards which experience much higher loads do not appear to have elongated at all.

Though 6mm and 8mm halyards on a 43' masthead sloop might be a tad hard on the hands if you go to pull them, they "do not appear to have elongated at all."

Going with a bigger (normal) diameter would provide better hand for hoisting the sails and would stretch even less.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by psk125

Though 6mm and 8mm halyards on a 43' masthead sloop might be a tad hard on the hands if you go to pull them, they "do not appear to have elongated at all."

Going with a bigger (normal) diameter would provide better hand for hoisting the sails and would stretch even less.

psk125, I mentioned that these halyards are "tapered". This means that while the load bearing portion is 6mm bare dyneema, a significant portion of the halyard has a cover on it making it larger and easier to handle.

The part of the halyard tail which is pulled on by the crew, and the part which goes through the sheet stoppers, is covered by a polyester cover. This makes the handled part approximately 7/16 inch, and is the same size as our previous halyards. In fact we reused the polyester covers from the previous wire/rope halyards because they were in perfect shape and had the colors we wanted.

It is interesting how much weight is saved by keeping more than half of the length without covers. If we let go of the shackle end of the halyard it shoots directly to the top of the mast. Even with a large Tylaska stainless shackle that half is much lighter than the half which has a poly cover, We have to be careful not to release the halyard because if we do it is gone and a trip to the mast head is needed.

[bgytr]

I have a Hood Gulfstar 40 and replaced my rope/wire main, headsail, and spin halyards with New England ropes viper lines in 2019. My rig was pulled last Dec 2021 to replace the last of the standing rigging that I have been incrementally replacing since we got the boat in 2019.
All the original halyard sheaves circa 1977 are fine and work fine with the new halyards, inspected when the rig was pulled by my rigger who is a personal friend since we were youngsters decades ago, so I fully trust him. He's been a big time rigger on high end race programs and is now semi-retired, does work part time on jobs as he wants.
So the new halyards have been working great, absolutely no stretch or signs of wear at present. I race a lot, so understand the signs of halyard stretch and wear. My halyards certainly have a lot more load on them than the OPs boat, so you'll be fine getting similar quality rope halyards instead of wire. Just get a look at the halyard sheaves make sure they are clean, smooth, and rotate well.

[j.g.evans]

I have a 1981 C&C 36 on which I just replaced the main sail wire-rope halyard. It might have been good for another 5 years, but he rope looked tired while the wire was OK. The wire is in the sun when not sailing. I chose to go wire-rope again for I doubt if "plastic" halyards will give over 40 years of service sitting in the sun. I went to the internet to learn how do the splice. I need a longer halyard then the 50' wire and 50' rope kits that are available. My 3/16" wire to 1/2" splice had a slightly larger diameter than the C&C spice, but it went over the sheaves just fine. The 1/2" line is easy to handle.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by j.g.evans

I chose to go wire-rope again for I doubt if "plastic" halyards will give over 40 years of service sitting in the sun. The 1/2" line is easy to handle.

Same here, except the wire>rope halyard is for the jib.
I still use an all-wire main that winds-up like a fishing reel.
Yes, I'm quite aware of all the horror stories, and yes, the "lever release" models can be dangerous, (more so than the "thread" style.
I use a "Barient", it uses a screw thread handle, you can release it so that the main will not fall of its own accord, but rather lets you pull down the sail as you wish, with but little effort.
Both require you to TAKE THE *%^# HANDLE OUT BEFORE RELEASE.
It makes reefing easy, as both hands can work the sail without a loose halyard flying in the breeze.
I grew up using them, so it's second nature, their biggest downfall is slower hoisting.

[bgytr]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Same here, except the wire>rope halyard is for the jib.
I still use an all-wire main that winds-up like a fishing reel.
Yes, I'm quite aware of all the horror stories, and yes, the "lever release" models can be dangerous, (more so than the "thread" style.
I use a "Barient", it uses a screw thread handle, you can release it so that the main will not fall of its own accord, but rather lets you pull down the sail as you wish, with but little effort.
Both require you to TAKE THE *%^# HANDLE OUT BEFORE RELEASE.
It makes reefing easy, as both hands can work the sail without a loose halyard flying in the breeze.
I grew up using them, so it's second nature, their biggest downfall is slower hoisting.

Man that's serious old school, 60s era or before!
I still don't get why anyone would want a wire running rigging of any type if you can avoid it. Weight aloft and pita handling. Much harder on sheaves. You really want your halyard to last 40 years? I wouldn't trust it that long anyway.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by bgytr

Man that's serious old school, 60s era or before!
I still don't get why anyone would want a wire running rigging of any type if you can avoid it. Weight aloft and pita handling. Much harder on sheaves. You really want your halyard to last 40 years? I wouldn't trust it that long anyway.

Yeah, it is old school, (me too).
It's a Hinckley mast, the sheeves are 8" diameter and in great shape.
If it lasts 40 years, it'll probably outlast me.
I've often thought of replacing the halyard with rope and replacing the winch but other things have been higher on the list.
The sheeves are "combo" shaped and will handle 1/2" rope without issues.
Never been worried about a few pounds of wire, it's a lot less than sticking a radar and its cable way up in the air, (not to mention windage,) or a roller furling extrusion.
I'm not crossing any oceans.

[bgytr]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Yeah, it is old school, (me too).
It's a Hinckley mast, the sheeves are 8" diameter and in great shape.
If it lasts 40 years, it'll probably outlast me.
I've often thought of replacing the halyard with rope and replacing the winch but other things have been higher on the list.
The sheeves are "combo" shaped and will handle 1/2" rope without issues.
Never been worried about a few pounds of wire, it's a lot less than sticking a radar and its cable way up in the air, (not to mention windage,) or a roller furling extrusion.
I'm not crossing any oceans.

To each his own, I took my radar off (came with the boat), was 20+ feet up the mast, never used in 3 years on the Chesapeake. If we get up in the New England areas where there is fog, I might put a new radar on.

[Zygodactyl]

Agree with previous comments to carefully inspect sheave for burrs and wear. Not sure about previous comments discussing dyneema in the same sentence as core. It has none. Buy the best dyneema you can. It comes prestretched and you can stretch it yourself if not, and it’s super easy to work with. You can use a relatively small diameter without sacrificing strength and reduce weight aloft and eliminate wire to rope splices and and nasty wire rope finger fishhooks.