Repower or sell as-is? How to price?

[nrx500]

First off, a cruising boat needs a diesel. Solar or a wind turbine will not generate the wattage you need to drive an electric motor hundreds of miles through calm water. And forget about driving your boat upwind to find a safe harbor. Then imagine running an inlet and the batteries quit. You just lost your boat.

You have two options, cut your losses and sell as is. Or install a small diesel generator with a dedicated starter battery. That's if you have room and can run the cooling and exhaust hardware.

[moseriw]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I would price a new Beta marine engine and knock that much off. Not the full cost of a repower, just the cost of the engine.

And trying to fool the buyer? the engine itself is around USD 8.000-10.000 but the works are quite the same in the US and I think it will be another 5-8.000 USD at minimum.

The seller said they have not got time for the boat. Everyone who has a boat can imagine the state of the boat by now. Without engine I would not give more than 5-10.000 for it but with a new engine and everything else in doubtable state 30- 35.000,-- can be considered.

[jen1722terry]

KTP raises a good point. However, I think the larger englne may allow for a larger alternator, which we like to keep the house AGMs charged and not have to worry about the draw from the fridge and radar (which we use often in foggy Maine and Nova Scotia).

Also, I'm just not sure that a 14 would push a boat that heavy at hull speed at the optimal rpms (2700 for our Beta 25).

Also, I wonder if, in certain situations you'd be running the 14 hp at near max rpms, which may be good on occassion, not sure. We run our 25 up to max a few times each month to clean out carbon. Gees, the boat tops 7 knots and there have been a few times over the years we needed the extra power. Not sure we'd get that speed with a 14.

Anyhow, I don't believe the price difference is all that much between the 14, 25 and 34.
I suspect the 25 would be the best one for the larger alternator, but you may want the reserve power of the 34.

I'm sure there are more gifted mechanics and engineers out there with a better insight on this topic than I could ever offer

Cheers

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by nrx500

First off, a cruising boat needs a diesel. Solar or a wind turbine will not generate the wattage you need to drive an electric motor hundreds of miles through calm water. And forget about driving your boat upwind to find a safe harbor. Then imagine running an inlet and the batteries quit. You just lost your boat.

You have two options, cut your losses and sell as is. Or install a small diesel generator with a dedicated starter battery. That's if you have room and can run the cooling and exhaust hardware.

The only boats I have ever motored for even a hundred miles in calm water were motorboats. Not everyone is as reliant on the motor as some others are. There are still a few minimalist types who don't have a motor and many more who have one that doesn't run anymore. Plus, not every boat cruises. My boat would be an excellent cruising boat but the admiral made me swallow the anchor several years ago and now it is an overnighter, day tripper, guest entertainment venue, and all around dock queen in between. I do have a running diesel and I would need a really huge propulsion bank to push my boat more than a few miles. My previous boat was perfect for EP but not this tank.

And you are right, to an extent. EP is not the ideal setup for cruising. However it is perfect for day sailing if you are less than an hour or so from where you can get some sails up and some wind in them, and have convenient access to shore power for recharging. There are an awful lot of boats out there that don't do much if any cruising. Cruising honestly does call for a diesel but you certainly CAN cruise with EP if you are an EP zealot or the alternative is no mechanical propulsion at all.

A thoughtfully designed diesel electric parallel hybrid is actually pretty handy. With a diesel generator you have basically a serial hybrid. Almost as good. Parallel just allows you to turn the prop directly with the diesel, for when you need the range of diesel more than the benefits of EP.

I think the OP's decision was whether to sell as is with the EP gear installed, or put the old diesel, which ran when it was pulled, back in the boat. I doubt very much that he is interested in buying a brand new diesel for another repower right before selling.

If the price is right, somebody will buy her. EP has a lot of fans, some of whom have actually owned or sailed in an electric boat. Most of the naysayers have not, or did not do their due diligence before repowering, and were disappointed, or were promised ice cream, lollypops, and unicorns by fanboys and eager sales reps, only to find that the reality is different. Anybody who has put some sweat equity into actually learning about EP systems and designed a practical setup, has usually been satisfied. And it's not for everyone. But there are potential buyers out there for e-boats if the price is right.

[Mickeyrouse]

A few years ago I sold the boat I had at the time. I repowered it as the Atomic 4 had its best days behind it. I replaced it with a so-called “ drop in” fit Westerbeke 30. My thinking was that it would make it sell faster. It probably did- took a year- but I don’t think I got the value of the new engine in the deal. When it sold, it went for only a little more than comparable boats not re-powered, but not enough to cover the cost of the new engine and installation expenses.

[KTP]

Growley, I really do like the idea of a parallel hybrid. If you put a beta marine 14hp in the engine compartment where the yanmar 34 used to be, there would be ample room to affix the 10kW brushless motor to the output. Because my controller allows regen, the diesel could also act somewhat like a 48V output generator to recharge the main bank. When/if you ever needed more than 14hp, the 10kW motor could add in, giving you perhaps up to the equivalent of 28hp. When you were just puttering around at 3 or 4 kts, or motor sailing, you could run on electric alone.

I just don't have the time right now to do this setup, and even a 14hp engine with all the bits and bobs is probably $8,000 (probably $10,000 when you add in the pipes and tanks and controls). You would end up with a very cool system, but still something that isn't going to appeal to the wide market, who just want a simple diesel engine.

Then again...exactly how much is a Beta Marine 14? I might be able to make the time for this...

[gonesail]

Agree a buyer of a Pacific Seacraft boat will probably want a diesel engine. But you never know .. someone might like it as is.

[MicHughV]

99.99999% of "sailor's" power more than they'd like to admit.

I'd never buy a boat with electric propulsion, regardless of price and conditions, as they are simply "impractical" for a variety of reasons.

[KTP]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

99.99999% of "sailor's" power more than they'd like to admit.

I'd never buy a boat with electric propulsion, regardless of price and conditions, as they are simply "impractical" for a variety of reasons.

So if someone offered you a 2015 Pacific Seacraft 37 that had been converted to electric for $3,000, you would not buy it?

What it sounds like to me is I should sell this one, then when I want to buy another boat in a different location, look for a EP boat and then repower it to diesel

[MicHughV]

No, I would not buy it. I've installed diesel engines before, it's a giant PITA, probably requiring a haulout, crane service, removal of electric engine, tankage, exhaust, shaft and prop, stuffing box, bearings, engine controls, etc, ad infinitum.
Can all be done off course, but comes at a price, can easily be $20K by the time you are done, even if you have the engine laying around as it would need a close look prior to installation.
All this presumes you are a handy mechanic and a boat DIY person to begin with, otherwise you'll have to hire somebody...yet more $$$$
And then there is the time factor, preparation, etc, etc

PS make a nice boat, no dispute there, but without a diesel....nope...not interested at any price.

[KTP]

Sorry, I am just a bit shocked here. So if your diesel goes belly up in your boat, you sell the boat?

[MicHughV]

Diesels don't simply go belly up. Look after them and they'll run forever.

Anyway, giving you my opinion, someone else's might differ, but selling a boat with electric propulsion is a tough sell in my book.

There are so many boats for sale at the moment, that many other options exist for most any would be buyer.

[KTP]

Just a hypothetical though, there are situations where a diesel could go belly up, runaway condition, seize up.

The EP powered boat is really no different from a boat with a diesel that needs to be pulled. It takes about 20 minutes to remove the entire EP assembly and you have a clean vacant engine compartment.

As a matter of fact, I could easily list the boat with no EP and say diesel has been pulled, engine compartment clean and waiting rebuild or repower. Would that make it more attractive? I could use the EP to make a gocart or something lol.

[MicHughV]

As I've mentioned, it will take considerable effort to put a diesel engine back in the boat.
I'm skeptical that most would-be buyers would consider this option as a condition to buy the boat.
You are better off re-installing the diesel yourself. The odds of you selling the boat at a much better price will go up considerably.
You could then try to sell the electric motor on ebay or something.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by KTP

Growley, I really do like the idea of a parallel hybrid. If you put a beta marine 14hp in the engine compartment where the yanmar 34 used to be, there would be ample room to affix the 10kW brushless motor to the output. Because my controller allows regen, the diesel could also act somewhat like a 48V output generator to recharge the main bank. When/if you ever needed more than 14hp, the 10kW motor could add in, giving you perhaps up to the equivalent of 28hp. When you were just puttering around at 3 or 4 kts, or motor sailing, you could run on electric alone.

I just don't have the time right now to do this setup, and even a 14hp engine with all the bits and bobs is probably $8,000 (probably $10,000 when you add in the pipes and tanks and controls). You would end up with a very cool system, but still something that isn't going to appeal to the wide market, who just want a simple diesel engine.

Then again...exactly how much is a Beta Marine 14? I might be able to make the time for this...

The only difficulty lies in finding a motor with the shaft accessible at both ends. Ideally you drive the motor with the diesel's reduction gear via a lovejoy coupling or similar. Then couple the other end to the prop shaft with a thrust bearing and a u-joint if needed though I would try to get a good enough alignment to not need one. You need a clutch between the diesel and the electric motor so you want the old marine transmission. You can also key a set of pulleys to the prop shaft which is coupled to the diesel as usual, and drive the prop shaft with a couple of belts or one nice big wide one, driven by the motor. The disadvantage here is you need a coupling in the shaft that is quick and easy to break for replacing belts. Some guys put extra belts around the shaft and hang them so that the shaft doesn't wear on them. If a belt breaks, you got one on the shaft already, just need to move it to the pulleys. If it just wears out, cut it, and same thing. A single ordinary vee belt will FAIL in short order. If you use typical engine vee belts, you want at least three, maybe four of them.

The popular Motenergy motors and their clones only expose one end of the shaft. You can of course disassemble and machine a new shaft if you have a lathe and vertical mill available.

Bear in mind that these motors are NOT meant to accept an axial (in/out, push/pull) load at all, and especially an axial flux motor will be instantly destroyed if the shaft is pushed forward even a little bit, so keep that in mind as you design your system. Also the diesel's transmission might or might not cheerfully accept an axial load. It might also not be good to spin the output shaft for hours and hours with the clutch disengaged. Ask your mechanic. So anyway it is good to plan on having a thrust bearing to transmit the forward push or backward pull of the prop and transfer it directly to the hull. You can of course make a thrust bearing, out of a couple of plates of 4140 steel with a race machined into both plates' facing surfaces. Fill the groove up with ball bearings and bobs yer uncle. Three plates even better, catches both FWD and REV thrust, with the middle plate grooved on both sides. You can make a housing and fill it with oil if you like, or just shoot plenty of grease to it. A heavy duty double tapered roller bearing will do in a pinch, off the shelf. Then you just need a pillow block to mount it on, that you can adjust for alignment.

One point in favor of a belt drive system is you can easily change the reduction ratio while monitoring performance, for an optimized load and speed curve. There are formulae and spreadsheets all over the place for matching hull and prop and motor and gearing, but they only put you very roughly in the ballpark. Direct 1 to 1 ratio will usually work, but depending on system voltage, motor, prop, etc, the ideal ratio is usually between about 2:1 and 3.5 to 1.

Some guys like a brushed motor. The advantage of a straight DC motor is if your controller goes north on you, you can hook directly to your bank in an emergency. With parallel hybrid, not an issue cause you got the diesel mechanically coupled to the system. With serial, everything depends on the motor and controller

So there are a bunch of little details to see to. One company in fact I think it was Beta, was adding an electric motor to the Beta/Kubota engines for parallel hybrid capability but I have no experience with those and know nothing about them. Parallel is of course more complex, and optimizing the system for all modes of operation and for cruise, eco, and docking speed ranges can be very time consuming and make big demands on your engineering prowess.

Rolling your own can be a lot cheaper and better in many ways than accepting a turnkey system just the way it comes or the installer configures it. But, you can also blow several hundred bucks by trashing a controller or a motor. With a turnkey system the engineering, correct or not so perfectly correct, is already done for you.