Researching Blue Water Boats

[Sailor Sailor]

You should rely on outside expert resources (not me) rather than a listserv for your decision-making process.

Read "Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts" by the Technical Committee of the Cruising Club of America, edited by John Rousmaniere. (Actually, read every book by John Rousmaneire and John Kretschmer while you are at it - true experts who have experienced the worst the sea can offer.)

Look at John Neal's Mahina Expeditions website, specifically the Selecting a Boat for Offshore Passages section. There is a list of specific boats to consider for bluewater cruising. (Some will be offended that their boats are not listed there, including most of the current mass production boats.)

This is always a contentious subject. Some want to believe their boat does it all well: race, cruise, passagemaking, entertaining, etc. That is really not possible and a somewhat absurd belief. Boats are usually designed and engineered for specific purposes.

I owned two Pearsons and thought they was generally well-made, sturdy, seaworthy boats. As much as I liked them, I am not sure I would want to cross an ocean in the cruiser/racer ones, or get caught out far from shore in a gale or storm. Unfortunately, most Pearsons were made with pan construction instead of being stick built. That would not necessarily eliminate a boat from contention for me, but it is a consideration.

Personally, if you really like Pearsons, I would pick the Pearson 386, 424 or 35' models, over the 365, for longer passagemaking.

My bluewater dream boats would be along the lines of a S&S Nautor Swan 44, Hinckley Bermuda 40, Crealock 37, Valiant 40, Passport 40, LaFitte 44. That means sacrificing a large aft cabin and shower from a broad stern and entertaining space for a better-built, more seaworthy boat than most modern production boats. They also tend to be more expensive than some other choices of a similar vintage.

[carstenb]

As has been noted above - almost anything can be considered a "bluewater boat" . Skippers and crews are what make the difference.

Some thoughts for you:

1- most passages are downwind (unless you are going west to east ) so pointing ability is not a major concern (but it is when you are coastal sailing or sailing between islands etc.)

2- Passage sailng amounts to about 15% of you total sailing. The rest of the time you are making short hops or at anchor etc. 85% of the time you have to live on the boat.

3- Buy your boat for the 85% of the time while keeping a good eye on the other 15% - the boat ahs to be able to make a passage.

4- Keel or deck? Probably not as important as many say. If you are a good weather planner and make passages in the seasons and not out of them, you chances of running into seriously bad weather are small. Rather than worry about this, you're better off spending the time checking your rigging on a regular basis (meaning every couple of months, always before a passage etc). As a rigger once told me - "Those that check their rigs often have less problems than those that don't"

5- The old adage is true - ask 12 cruisers what defines a bluewater boat and you'll get 15 answers

[rondelais]

We have a 1976 Pearson 365 ketch. It is a very solid boat, with very thick hull and deck glass, and is darn near bulletproof. The main mast is keel stepped, while the mizzen is stepped on a very solid bridge deck at the companionway. The main step is on top of the encapsulated keel, and any water coming down the mast or getting past the deck seal will end up there. On our boat, when we bought it there was a small amount of corrosion at the base of the mast, and the step (made of steel) was quite corroded. We had a new step fabricated out of aluminum, that included a riser of about 1-1/2 inches. We cut 1-1/2 inches off the mast, and it all mounted perfectly. The corrosion was really only on the bottom 1/2 inch, but we took off 1-1/2 so that the bottom of the mast would never be in water. We had the new step powder coated, and after 15 years it still looks perfect. The new step cost (as I recall) about $200 to fabricate and powder coat at a local machine shop, and I did the rest myself in the spring before launch. As mentioned earlier, these are solid, heavy boats that are very capable offshore. Accommodations are very good for cruisers - Bill Shaw did not try to put a lot of bunks in there. There are no quarterberths, so there are very large cockpit lockers. There is a separate stand-up shower, which can be turned into storage if long passages are contemplated. The tankage is huge - 150 gal water and 50 gal fuel. We get 10 mi/gal at 5 kt on engine at 1600 rpm, so you could go 500 mi under power. Engine access is not all that handy - it is located under the bridge deck. You can get at the sides of the engine via the cockpit lockers, which are big enough for a good-size man to get into and work in. The fuel tank is located under the cockpit, and not easily accessible. The keel, although theoretically a fin, is long and fairly shallow (draws 4’6”). It is also thick and solid, with 7,300 lb ballast. The rudder is hung on a very solid skeg . As far as sailing performance is concerned - like most ketches, it is not as weatherly as a sloop, and we tack through (course made good) about 100 degrees. It does take 8-10 kt breeze to really sail well. You will want some kind of downwind sail in light air. A mizzen staysail is also fun. The sloop or cutter version has a slightly deeper keel, a slightly taller mast, and better performance in coastal sailing. At sea, I’d prefer the ketch.

[jordanbigel]

I knew some people on a Pearson 35 (not sure which model) - on a long upwind passage of 5 or 6 weeks where the deck started to separate from the hull. Luckily, my friend is a better mechanic than I am - he drove in new bolts to secure the hull/deck joint and re-glued it, while at sea. I'll bet that was fun.

I had a Pearson 26 way back when. Never went off shore in it, but it was a fun boat. For me, I chose a moderately heavy displacement, modified full keel ketch to cross oceans with. A lot of the boats mentioned upthread sound great. I would just emphasize comfort at sea being the key to both safety and happiness.

I suggest you give some consideration to the Brewer comfort ratio - according to sailboatdata.com the Pearson 365 has a comfort ratio of 33 which is just in the Bluewater range which supposedly starts at 30. I'm not saying the brewer ratio should be the authority on what is and what isn't a Bluewater boat, just pointing it out as one more data point and method for evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of various boats. (Disclosure: My boat has a brewer ratio of 39 and has a displacement of 40,000lbs - I am not into performance or speed, I am into being comfortable at sea, so color my opinions with that in mind).

Some people suggest that a ratio under 30 marks a boat as a coastal cruiser and the 50-60 range is considered a heavy Bluewater boat (NB: Any boat which crosses the blue can be said to be a Bluewater Boat, I am not here to judge) - boats with a ratio over 50 are likely to be very large.

I found this article recently (by Charles Doane) when thinking about this subject, you may find it relevant. https://wavetrain.net/2011/10/15/cru...comfort-ratio/

[rondelais]

By the way, by the time you have loaded up the P 365, its comfort ratio will be a lot higher. The published figure of 33 assumes no fluids (1500 lb or so), no anchor(s) or chain, no stores, etc. I figure we have at least another 3,500 lion board, which brings the Comfort Ratio to almost 40. It’s also why, if you want to do any PHRF stuff, you have to take everything off the boat and cut your toothbrush in half.

[Lady Captin]

Thank you to all that have taken the time and effort to reply. There has been such good experience and knowledge shared that it would not be possible for me to reply to each and everyone .

So I will try a generic reply,. We realize that we know so very little and have nothing for experience. It just for these very reasons that we ask , what to most will seem like silly questions , that we should already know the answers to.

I don’t know if this will make sense, but when you tell your family and friends that you want to sell your house and sail the world, when you’ve never set foot on a sailboat. I’m sure you can begin to imagine the only desires and thoughts that are fed are those of fear and danger .


It is only by striving to educate ourselves and learn as much as possible that we have begun to overcome the fear, the thoughts of being in the middle of the ocean alone on a boat with no help should we need it.

I don’t say this because we’re scared and we aren’t prepared to sail , I only share this because I think for many of us in the beginning this is where we start, the thought of the open ocean , of being alone when by our very nature we are social creatures.

My point is as we learn more , and become better educated and less fearful, the boats we seek change in ways that we did not foresee. In the beginning of our journey the only thing we wanted was the perfect boat to save our souls at Sea , laugh out loud.

However now we’ve gone from feeling, we have to have a full keel, we have to have keel stepped mast, two masts , a floating tank ! One that could double as a submarine if the need arises , to now , where we only seek a well built sailboat that we can sail as safe as possible.

They say there is nothing that trumps experience, so we are simply here to ask our questions , in the hopes that we can learn from others’ experiences and as a result perhaps make fewer mistakes , or have fewer regrets.

I apologize to those of you who have been here for quite some time, only to have to revisit the simple same questions over and over. I sincerely hope that in time and with some practice and patience , we can learn to better navigate this website in a way that is more informed and less repetitive for those who are more experienced

I would just like to share that we read and absorb every reply and try to take a little something from each one. There is wisdom and value in every reply, sometimes even the sarcastic ones !

Thank you again to all who have taken the time to reply to my questions you giving us a great deal to think about in our own personal journey of sailing the world

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Lady Captin

I apologize to those of you who have been here for quite some time, only to have to revisit the simple same questions over and over.

No need to apologize! It is very smart that you are asking here! And in your choice of a Pearson 365 as a first possibility is a good one!
A good thing about experience is that it will counterbalance all those terrible things you can imagine after seeing a movie like the "Perfect Storm." I always recommend folks take some lessons and start with a fun little boat that makes you just fall in love with sailing and the ocean. If you find that you don't fall in love with it all, better to find out on a 12 foot boat than a 40 footer.

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Don C L

A good thing about experience is that it will counterbalance all those terrible things you can imagine after seeing a movie like the "Perfect Storm."

To say nothing of All is Lost

[Hint: Reef first, then cook dinner, and shave, or whatever.]

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Lady Captin

...where we only seek a well built sailboat that we can sail as safe as possible.

A common expression among sailors is that "the boat can take more than the people can." Which is surprisingly true, it seems. Unless going after a new boat the reality is is that many folks buy a pre-owned boat based on what's available, its condition, and its price. When the time comes, you'll find the one that fits your needs.

[Lady Captin]

Yes this is so very true. I guess one of the greatest things about the human condition is , we can always justify our actions in our own minds !

For some it’s a larger boat , for others it a smaller one !

For us we are at the point where we waver between a smaller 32 foot boat and a larger 36 or 38 foot boat. As we have learned so far in our journey, it’s not the purchase price you need to be most concerned about , because you have some choice in that.

Rather it’s the maintenance cost and hidden costs of upgrades, that have grounded more than one sailing dream.

I know that some of the sailing community think Lynn and Larry Pardy were masochists in their tiny boats , as they cruised the world, and this may, or may not have been true.

But they did have one famous saying that always seems to stay with me,. The perfect boat for you , is the boat you own,! Therefore, it is better to sail the boat you own now , then to never sail the boat you dream of, or something to that effect ?

The truth of the matter is the time is not right for us now, so we are putting our energy and our efforts into what we can do now. So when the day is right for us we can buy the best boat that we know of , to give us the greatest chance of success..

All this is just part of the process . As I love to say in life ....

“ WE MUST GO THROUGH WHAT WE GO THROUGH TO BE WHERE WE NEED TO BE “ !


Thank you very much to those who take the time to respond to our questions in a thoughtful way ! You are truly helping us keep our dream alive , and allowing us to move forward , even if it’s one small Baby step at time

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Lady Captin

Rather it’s the maintenance cost and hidden costs of upgrades, that have grounded more than one sailing dream.

I know that some of the sailing community think Lynn and Larry Pardy were masochists in their tiny boats , as they cruised the world, and this may, or may not have been true.

Well, there's another saying. "Big boats, big problems; little boats, little problems. I once had an infatuation with the Pearson 365 and the 424. The 365 was once described as an "unapologetic" cruising boat. Not trying to be something other. I think the basic model is a ketch, but there are some out there rigged as sloops. Same with the 424. A good cruising boat has lots of space for storage, leaving a bit less for comfortable "roominess." You go aboard many later models, well into the 1990's and later, and you'll see the change over from storage space to crew space. Comfort trumps performance.

[double u]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

This is what’s wrong , the assumption that money buys you “ better “ built rather then just high costs or brand costs

I’d suggest by the way I’ve spent way way way more time offshore in storms in AWB, then you have eaten hot dinners

Don’t disparage what you clearly don’t understand.

Most boats over 35 feet can “blue water “ as it the testimony of seeing plain AWBs on most of the common cruising crossroads.

Good boats don’t cross oceans good skippers and crew do. The boat won’t and can’t save you from stupid decisions.

Offering up $1 million boats as a solution ( oyster Amel ) is just nonsense

Absolutely correct!
OP: commit more resources to "bluewater" yourself & less to find the "ideal" bluewater boat. The fixation on deckstepped vs. keel stepped masts shows, that your knowledge has a long way to go.

[Searles]

Look at a Catalina 38 mk2 , a American boat ,blue water ,will out sail most cruising crews,good layout for off shore ,plus fast enough on all points of sail ,and plenty off them to choose from.⚓️⛵️👍

[Barkingmad]

Keep the boat you have, load some stuff you want to keep in it and head east with it on a trailer and start your apprenticeship.
There is an amazing sailing community in Nova Scotia, great cruising and pretty cheap compared to the rest of Canada to live.
Lk Winnipeg is big but here you have the entire eastern seaboard to play and fairly easy sailing to warmer places in the winter once you've figured a few things out and have the right boat.
LOL CS 36! My dog and I more or less live aboard my 33 during the summer. Very well built Canadian boats, I have no hesitations what so ever about taking mine anywhere. Last summer I left Lunenburg the day after the first "hurricane" made it up that far (big hoopla about nothing really) heading south. Great day of sailing, biggest swells I've sailed in. There was no doubts when you where heading down the back of a wave. You were looking and sailing DOWN!
Getting to Lunenburg from Mushaboom pre hurricane was a long miserable day to windward! I was determined to be tied up to something solid. At that point the forecast was all over the place.

[dlj]

I've been following this thread and several times I've thought to write something but each time I've stopped because I am missing a critical piece of information. The OP is located in Manitoba. There is no ocean there. Some big lakes, which I'm assuming the Tanzer 22 is being sailed to learn about sailing. Nice boat for doing that and for sure a good beginning plan. From there, there is a leap to wanting a "Blue Water" boat that will take care of the OP in tough conditions. Also a good thing. The point I'm missing in order to give any sort of helpful advice, is where do you want to sail? Do you wish to do a circumnavigation? If so, starting from where? Do you wish to live on the boat for say 5 years? 10 years? More? Less? Perhaps you can't answer this yet, but it would be helpful to gain insight into what you think you will be aiming at.

Would you think your plan might be to sail the Great Lakes, cross say the Eire Canal, down the Hudson, down the East Coast to the Caribbean? Or straight out the St. Lawrence, head to Greenland, Iceland, over to Europe?

Perhaps you are thinking to head west. Launch in British Columbia and head... North? South? Will you desire to go down the West Coast, head over to Hawaii and onto the Pacific Islands?

While I'm sure there is a single boat that may work for any of the above scenarios, I do feel there are specific characteristics that should go higher on the list depending upon what that route choice is preferred.

Perhaps you can elaborate on what you think your, let's say, first 5 year sailing goals may be?

dj