Rigging / Engine Age

[charliehows]

Originally Posted by sunblock

Thanks Guys for all the helpful info. I am sure the rigging needs to be replaced, I guess my thought is if its in ok shape, could I get her home and then take my time do the re rig myself. Having to pay a yard to do it would be a bit more costly, but I am already looking for estimates in the Boston area.

Comments have put my mind at ease somewhat, 90% of these boats I see still have the original westerbeke, so it must be well built.

what you are asking is risk assessment - could you get the boat 500 miles presumably sailing, with a 30 year old rig, well the serious answer is - if the rig is stainless steel - fair seas and fine weather - medium to high risk because cavitation corrosion on stainless steel swaging is invisible and only makes itself known when a cable breaks. Heavy weather - high risk - same reason but put it under pressure and its gonna demonstrate the level of deterioration accordingly. You are probably looking at the rig and thinking "it looks shiny and new" you just cant see cav. corrosion.

[sunblock]

Originally Posted by roverhi

Rigging deteriorates from corrosion which isa function of age. I'd change it out, including the chain plates before heading out. For one thing it's doubtful if you'll be able to get insurance on the rig without a survey and I doubt any rigger would pass 30 year old rigging.

As far as the engine,ic it starts instantly when cold, doesn't overheat under load, and passes an oil analysis, it should be good to go. Might want to check the availability and colst off the heat exchanger as that is the part most affected by salt water.

Thanks, from what I have been told the heat exchanger has been replaced.

I will certainly have the rigging on this boat changed out if purchasing. That only leave the engine causing me any immediate concern

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by sunblock

Thanks, from what I have been told the heat exchanger has been replaced.

I will certainly have the rigging on this boat changed out if purchasing. That only leave the engine causing me any immediate concern

+1 on the rigging...

If "I" were an engine surveyor here is what I would do as a "maximum"

- Review engine maintenance history - as available
- Run engine, start from cold. Exercise in forward and reverse (i.e. seatrial minimum 30-40 minutes). Put on heavy load (i.e. tie to dock and max power) - Observations accumulated and evaluated (smoke, power, vibration, temperature & stability etc.)
- Use thermal gun to evaluate metal temps during sea trial and look for hot and cold spots
- Use engine stethoscope to listen for bearing and or rod knocks or unusual mechanical noises during sea trial
- Evaluate blow by by observation at oil fill cap or engine breather during sea trial
- Evaluate shaft vibration, alignment and sealing
- Evaluate and inspect engine bed and engine mounts
- Remove oil filter - cut open and examine for particulates
- Differential compression test
- Borescope inspect cylinders - wear, scoring, heat damage, valve seats and carbonization
- Inspect / check valve lash, clearance and timing
- Oil analysis - This is suggested a lot here but a single analysis is not always conclusive. Repeated analysis showing a "change" in oil / metal contents and a rising reading is more alarming than say a "low but existing" chrome content
- Bench test injectors
- Open and inspect raw pump and impeller
- Open and inspect heat exchanger
- Open and inspect mixing elbow and exhaust muff
- Inspect fresh water system for scaling and contaminants (oil and carbon)
- Inspect thermostat
- Inspect / evaluate all engine instrumentation, alarms and electrics for operation, condition and proper wiring
- Inspect and evaluate engine controls (throttle and shifting systems)
- Inspect and evaluate raw water supply including thru hulls seacocks, filters and hoses
- Inspect and evaluate alternator output, installation, belts, pulley alignment and wiring
- Inspect and evaluate all engine hoses, belts, clamps for condition and security
- Inspect / operate lift pump, decompression levers and other systems not covered above

Additional out of water

- Evaluate saildrive if installed for bellows sealing and age. Drain and evaluate oil for metals and / or water contamination. remove prop and evaluate shaft seal, splines and prop
- Evaluate shaft drive to include cutlass bearings struts supports. Remove inspect prop, shaft and splines. Evaluate gearbox oil, clutch and installation & mounts.

This is way, way more than the average surveyor would do but this evaluation would cover just about anything I can think of and probably why I would do it myself.

The caveat of course is that the inspection tells you the condition today. It is very hard to predict future time to failure for any of these systems.

Note - Fuel tank and supply system including filters to me is generally covered under hull and hull systems evaluation.

[donradcliffe]

30 year old rigging is a big red flag--the previous owner has cheaped out on maintenance, and ALL systems are suspect.

[daddle]

Seriously -Treat everything the owner and agent say as false. If they said the rigging was 3 years old and the engine had 30,000 hours I would still rely on a professional assessment before giving ANY weight to the owner's or broker's remarks.

Helps to not let the seller's remarks pollute the surveyor's mind. They should never meet.

[roverhi]

You can do the rigging yourself using Norseman/StaLok terminals. Just order the length of 316 wire that you need, the terminals, and use the old wire as a pattern. You should be able to rerig the boat in a day. It goes really quickly after you do a couple of terminals.

You could probably make new chainplates yourself if you have a drill press. Wouldn't attempt it without one. A machinist friend made mine. I bought the proper width, thickness and length pieces of 316 SS from a metal supplier. He drilled and polished them. Sure do look purty. I shortened the old chainplates, drilled oversize holes in them and used them for backing plates. Way better and stronger than the original setup.

There are so many of the 4-107's out there, can't believe you wouldn't be able to find parts if you needed them. Besides boats, they went into a ton of commercial applications and a few tractors as well. For a period of 20 years or more, most of the sailboats with diesels had that Perkins engine in them. Westerbeke also marinized the engine so could be another source of parts. The engine has a great reputation for longevity with the biggest complaint being minor leaking from the crankshaft seals. Hey, it's a Brit Engine, it's in its genes to mark to its territory. If it passes the start up, running temp, and oil analysis, wouldn't be overly concerned. Parts are probably expensive but parts for any diesel aren't cheap. The newer Yanmar and Kubota conversions have the advantage of being tractor engines so you can get parts from your local tractor store. For the marinized parts on the engine. Try and find out who the marinizer sourced them from and go direct to the manufacturer of the part. Heard of a guy who recently bought a water pump for a Volvo directly from a non marine source at 1/4th the price that Volvo wanted.

Good luck with the boat. If the rigging has held up this long it will probably go a bit longer without attention. If possible, I'd pull the chainplates and inspect them as the first order of business. You can see the wire and discover a majority of the problems before they become catastrophic. The area of the chainplates buried in the deck can only be checked by removing them and that's where almost all chainplates fail, often without warning, from crevice corrosion.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by bobconnie

+ 100 On Mimsy 30 yr old rigging is junk

It's not junk, it's highly suspect.

[sunblock]

Originally Posted by roverhi

You can do the rigging yourself using Norseman/StaLok terminals. Just order the length of 316 wire that you need, the terminals, and use the old wire as a pattern. You should be able to rerig the boat in a day. It goes really quickly after you do a couple of terminals.

You could probably make new chainplates yourself if you have a drill press. Wouldn't attempt it without one. A machinist friend made mine. I bought the proper width, thickness and length pieces of 316 SS from a metal supplier. He drilled and polished them. Sure do look purty. I shortened the old chainplates, drilled oversize holes in them and used them for backing plates. Way better and stronger than the original setup.

There are so many of the 4-107's out there, can't believe you wouldn't be able to find parts if you needed them. Besides boats, they went into a ton of commercial applications and a few tractors as well. For a period of 20 years or more, most of the sailboats with diesels had that Perkins engine in them. Westerbeke also marinized the engine so could be another source of parts. The engine has a great reputation for longevity with the biggest complaint being minor leaking from the crankshaft seals. Hey, it's a Brit Engine, it's in its genes to mark to its territory. If it passes the start up, running temp, and oil analysis, wouldn't be overly concerned. Parts are probably expensive but parts for any diesel aren't cheap. The newer Yanmar and Kubota conversions have the advantage of being tractor engines so you can get parts from your local tractor store. For the marinized parts on the engine. Try and find out who the marinizer sourced them from and go direct to the manufacturer of the part. Heard of a guy who recently bought a water pump for a Volvo directly from a non marine source at 1/4th the price that Volvo wanted.

Good luck with the boat. If the rigging has held up this long it will probably go a bit longer without attention. If possible, I'd pull the chainplates and inspect them as the first order of business. You can see the wire and discover a majority of the problems before they become catastrophic. The area of the chainplates buried in the deck can only be checked by removing them and that's where almost all chainplates fail, often without warning, from crevice corrosion.

4-107 ? This is news to me, are you saying the w-60 is another engine entirely ? just marinized by Westerbeke ? if so thats great news. I have just searched around for w-60 parts and didn't see any. What does marinizing an engine actually entail ?

[sunblock]

Originally Posted by roverhi

Rigging deteriorates from corrosion which isa function of age. I'd change it out, including the chain plates before heading out. For one thing it's doubtful if you'll be able to get insurance on the rig without a survey and I doubt any rigger would pass 30 year old rigging.

As far as the engine,ic it starts instantly when cold, doesn't overheat under load, and passes an oil analysis, it should be good to go. Might want to check the availability and colst off the heat exchanger as that is the part most affected by salt water.

Thanks, I am certainly going to do the rigging, I was just hoping I could get her home first so I could do it myself. If I go for that I will just factor in having the local yard handle it.

[barnakiel]

I would not survey a rigging this old. I would probably just change it.

b.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by roverhi

. The engine has a great reputation for longevity with the biggest complaint being minor leaking from the crankshaft seals. Hey, it's a Brit Engine, it's in its genes to mark to its territory.

Rover... wonderful line... wish that I'd said that, and I likely will borrow it from time to time. Good one!

Cheers,

Jim

[roverhi]

I'm a long time Brit Car owner starting with my first car, an MGA. Have three Series Landrovers as lawn ornaments at present. Can't claim authorship of that phrase. It's a common refrain on the lro.com website

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by roverhi

I'm a long time Brit Car owner starting with my first car, an MGA. Have three Series Landrovers as lawn ornaments at present. Can't claim authorship of that phrase. It's a common refrain on the lro.com website

OK, it is rare that a really new phrase comes around! And, as the long-ago owner of Brit motorcycles (Norton, Triumph), I understand the genesis of the thought.

Cheers,

Jim

[casual]

Why Doubt the engine hours just sold a boat in which I,installed the engine 23 years ago 937 REAL Hours 9 trips from Fl to Bahamas ,Rigging needs replacing every 10 years,as a rule of thumb.Check the swags especially the lowers if no cracks are present will probably get u home.

[Pblais]

For a small engines on any sail boat an engine survey is a complete waste of money. You won't learn much that a regular survey would not cover. The engine is probably fine but all the "accessories" attached could be a problem. Paying a mechanic to start the engine cold and go over it is more than enough. Replacing the wire rigging and fittings isn't that big a deal. You'll end up spending some money no matter what it turns out to be.

For the most part the boat itself should be fine but that isn't the bigger picture with a 70's boat. It's all the stuff attached to the boat can cost the real money. Electrical standards on a boat that old were non existent when it was built and most boats back then didn't have but minimal electrics. All the deck hardware and gadgets inside the boat all may need work and some replaced. When you have to replace items it adds up to a ton of money fast!

Buying a boat that you have to sail home 500 miles isn't maybe a really great deal either. Buying long distance adds a lot of after closing costs and it means doing work far away from home where you don't really know anyone. You get pinched for time and have to spend more at premium rates. The clock becomes an enemy. You have to have the boat ship shape to leave where it is to get where you mean to be. Few 70's boats are worth that extra effort for a first boat. Having never seen it I would venture it's not as good a deal as you think. You need to step back and look at everything not just a few things. You could easily spend $10K and not do that much.