Rogger 46 Motorsailers - Are they Seaworthy ?

[ReefRaff]

Does anyone know about the seaworthiness and sailing ability of these yachts? My research suggests they have excellent sailing characteristics and are offshore-capable, but they're a pretty obscure yacht from Europe and I haven't been able to find definitive info. I've checked out the Rogger owners site etc but not much to go on there. I prefer steel for offshore, but these GRP Roggers were built to Lloyds and the hulls built by Halmatic. Any input would really help me out. Cheers all.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, ReefRaff.

[meuritt]

I don't have a Rogger, but I do have the Banjer 37, same designer, same yard. Boats in the Banjer fleet have crossed all the oceans and visited the poles. I am always pleased to find just how solid my 1972 model is, the hull and the general quality of the construction. I am currently updating and/or replacing systems on my boat.

I do want to point out, the boats were built to Lloyds Specs, they were *not* inspected by Lloyds. The surveyor of my boat found one soft spot in the engine room. "In a normal boat I would require this piece to be replaced, but this boat has plenty of rendundancy, I won't mention it in the survey". He thought the boat suitably built for daily, at sea, use.

In my own limited experience, if the Rogger passed inspection, meaning the rigging, sails, motor and other maintenance things were in order, I would have no doubt about the actual ship's ability to weather a blue water crossing. Mine survived a category 5 and, according to the original owner, a few tropical storms at sea as well.

The Banjer, a ketch, was typicaly built with too little sail area, taking the motor part of motorsailer very seriously, she does not go to weather well, and does require 10 knot or better wind to ghost along. I've no idea if the Rogger is the same. On a reach or run she is fine. She is a rolling little boat and motoring with the mizzen up is a good idea. The masts are tabernacled (again I speak only of the Banjer, I do not know Rogger) and can easily e lowered, but she was designed with the Dutch canals in mind.

Some of the individuals have blister problems, most do not. There is not one single failure point because of questionable build practices in the Banjer line, unlike Taiwan boats and their legendary issues. I would make the bold assumption that the same was true with Rogger.

Mike
Banjer 37 "Rendezvous"

[ReefRaff]

Thanks Gord for your welcome message, it's good to be here.

And thanks Mike for your great reply, I appreciate it, it's really helped me understand these boats better. I have heard of the Banjer line and that they are cousins to the Roggers and have read only good things about their seaworthiness. They're tough little ships, and they sound like they have the same attributes as the Rogger, particularly the 35' Roggers which have a good reputation at sea, but my research indicates that the larger 46' Roggers have been used as liveaboards / marina-hopping around the Med / French canals rather than offshore, so it's been difficult to understand their sea credentials.

I've read that the 46' Rogger needs 6 knots to get going (according to one owner), which sounds too good for a heavy long keel motorsailer, especially since the SA/D ratio (according to cruisingresources.com) is way down at 8.6 (10 - 13 being undercanvassed!, 16 - 20 being high-powered).

Regarding Lloyds, I assume if a boat is on the actual register then it means it was indeed inspected by Lloyds - can anyone confirm either way?

Cheers very much,
ReefRaff

[fisherking]

Afraid not.
Any new vessel can be listed in Lloyds Register but they have not necessarily been built to Lloyds spec or classification.
If they are, the details will be noted in the Register, in column 8 - Classification Particulars.
The Halmatic - hulls only - used to build the Rogger 46, were supposedly built to Lloyds spec but no certification was ever issued to my knowledge.

Based on a Norwegian lifeboat design apparently, very round bilged giving poor sailing performance and an unfortunate motion in heavy weather.
Plywood decks are prone to rotting too.
Probably why there were only a handful ever built.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, fisherking.

[ReefRaff]

Originally Posted by fisherking

Afraid not.
Any new vessel can be listed in Lloyds Register but they have not necessarily been built to Lloyds spec or classification.
If they are, the details will be noted in the Register, in column 8 - Classification Particulars.
The Halmatic - hulls only - used to build the Rogger 46, were supposedly built to Lloyds spec but no certification was ever issued to my knowledge.

Based on a Norwegian lifeboat design apparently, very round bilged giving poor sailing performance and an unfortunate motion in heavy weather.
Plywood decks are prone to rotting too.
Probably why there were only a handful ever built.

Thanks for the input fisherking, however I am mystified as to how any build can claim to be "built to Lloyds" specification/classification but not have 'certification'. Has this been your experience?
Interesting what you say about the Norwegian lifeboat design...the hulls are very round and I can feel the rolling just to look at it. I keep hearing that this rogger 46 design actually sails well, but my instinct (and my eyes) are telling me otherwise. Re the decks, I have never understood the use of plywood...just a ticking time bomb. If you wanted to put me off the rogger 46 fisherking you just may have succeeded...or maybe not.

[fisherking]

Two different things here Reefraff.
As I stated previously, if a yacht is "built to Lloyds certification/classification",a certificate will exist as part of the yachts vital documents. Details of this certificate will also be found in column 8 of the Lloyds Register of Yachts.
Abbreviations such as 100A1 for hull, LMC for machinery and LRBC for a full build certification.

However, "built to Lloyds specification" doesn,t really mean a thing and without certification will not have been surveyed nor approved by Lloyds.

Being boringly specific, between 1878 and 1980, any boat could be listed in Lloyds Registry and many owners did this but merely for the prestige value.
Integrity of the vessel had nothing to do with it.


On the subject of the Rogger, I had such a vessel over 20 years ago and as with many so called motor sailers, I found it neither sailed nor motored particularly well. Then I discovered the Fisher, a true motorsailer that performs equally well under sail or motoring. A robust and seaworthy boat that will go anywhere, even in the heaviest seas and foulest weather in safety and comfort.
I didn,t mean to put you off Roggers, I,m just a Fisher freak and totally biased !!!

[ReefRaff]

Thanks fisherking that's very helpful; I now understand the Lloyds thing.

It's great to get some first-hand information on this Rogger design - everything I have read and heard about them has been quite vague except for Mike's assessment of the Banjer above which was very informative. I haven't heard of the Fisher, they sound ideal and i'll look them up. I didn't mean to say you wanted to put me off the roggers; you just provided some good hard, cold facts which I do appreciate.

I've been looking for an offshore cruiser for a long time and there's a lot of good value boats around. I am naturally drawn to the classic sailing yachts like the S&S - I'd even rate those Hughes of the golden '70's as a good offshore option simply due to their high ballast/displacement ratio and in spite of the stern overhang - but I am getting on in years and just can't clamber/crawl/crouch/duck like I once did so I'm looking at the easy motion and spacious heavy displacement boats where I can just amble around the decks and stretch the back, hence the motorsailers.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by fisherking

Two different things here Reefraff.
As I stated previously, if a yacht is "built to Lloyds certification/classification",a certificate will exist as part of the yachts vital documents. Details of this certificate will also be found in column 8 of the Lloyds Register of Yachts.
Abbreviations such as 100A1 for hull, LMC for machinery and LRBC for a full build certification.

However, "built to Lloyds specification" doesn,t really mean a thing and without certification will not have been surveyed nor approved by Lloyds.

Being boringly specific, between 1878 and 1980, any boat could be listed in Lloyds Registry and many owners did this but merely for the prestige value.
Integrity of the vessel had nothing to do with it.


On the subject of the Rogger, I had such a vessel over 20 years ago and as with many so called motor sailers, I found it neither sailed nor motored particularly well. Then I discovered the Fisher, a true motorsailer that performs equally well under sail or motoring. A robust and seaworthy boat that will go anywhere, even in the heaviest seas and foulest weather in safety and comfort.
I didn,t mean to put you off Roggers, I,m just a Fisher freak and totally biased !!!

+1 My fisher 32 is a truely great little ship. Had her surfing down the face of a couple of 4metre + swells last weekend, love it.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by ReefRaff

I've been looking for an offshore cruiser for a long time and there's a lot of good value boats around. I am naturally drawn to the classic sailing yachts like the S&S - I'd even rate those Hughes of the golden '70's as a good offshore option simply due to their high ballast/displacement ratio and in spite of the stern overhang - but I am getting on in years and just can't clamber/crawl/crouch/duck like I once did so I'm looking at the easy motion and spacious heavy displacement boats where I can just amble around the decks and stretch the back, hence the motorsailers.

Don't know what your budget is, but my boat is a S&S design and fits your description perfectly. There are a couple on the market.

1983 Nauticat 52 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by minaret

Don't know what your budget is, but my boat is a S&S design and fits your description perfectly. There are a couple on the market.

1983 Nauticat 52 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Really nice boat you have ..what are the round things on the front glass?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

Really nice boat you have ..what are the round things on the front glass?

Raven is not my boat, I was just giving a Yachtworld listing for a Nauticat 52 near me that I knew of. I own Wanderbird, a different Nauticat 52. I believe the round things in the windows of Raven's pilothouse are opening ports. Click on the 52 pics link under my name if you would like to see some pics of Wanderbird. Slightly different layout. Raven has reduced about 50k I believe since listing.

[minaret]

P.S. there's also one back east somewhere, RI I think. Here it is...

1981 Nauticat 52 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


And a bunch of European ones.

[fisherking]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

Really nice boat you have ..what are the round things on the front glass?

The "round things on the front glass" are clearview screens.
The round glass inside the circular frame is rotated by an electric motor at very high revs.Any water from rain or seaspray landing on the round glass is immediately thrown off by centrifugal force - hence the name clear view - much more efficient than windshield wipers.
Originally made by a company called Kent. Expensive but very very good bit of kit.