Rounding Cape Horn in CD 33 vs ASW II (merged)

[250224]

Originally Posted by Novice69

Hi I've made 2 postings with little to no substantial response on my question. I thought I would post here in the hope of some experienced and salty advice hence my user name. To be concise, I am looking into two boats one being a Cape Dory 33, the other a Allied Seawind MkII. My question would be if one had to choose between the 2 to sail the Southern Ocean and round Cape Horn, which one would you choose and why. I have no intentions of making this venture, so why do I ask? It appears to be one of if not the most challenging voyage to undertake. Having peace of mind know you have a boat that is capable of such, would increase my confidence to venture further and add to consider which one to chose Lastly, forgive if this question appear hypothetically gullible or naive and not realistic.

You are right. Unfortunately this forum (as others) has degenerated a lot. One technical issue may be, that people cannot correct a post later (like e.g. in Discourse). And also, maybe, that one doesn't respect a forum which attacks the community with aggressive advertisement?

Many of the most interesting sailors have left (I think). Some got old, know everything better and are happy to post "funny" quips only. Maybe some have big yachts now, are a bit out of shape and need (and demand) "full security"? Some, like a certain Trichechus manatus is plain toxic. There are still very kind and knowlegeable folks around (but it seems to me that they read and post less often) and maybe the forum has a bit run its course? --

Wish you luck with your question! My take would be that both boats are good enough but you'd want to look and hope for good weather...

There is a small cruisers boat list (https://atomvoyages.com/planning/cla...ers-list-html/) and you might know Dawntrader sailing a Allied Seawind in a.o. Patagonia (https://sailingdawntreader.com/2022/...o-archipelago/)

[gonesail]

for that journey I would chose a cape dory 36. along with a prayer.

[Don C L]

The two are so similar that the question really is, is it better to round the Horn in a ketch or a sloop? Here it may be more a matter of preference. The ketch gives you options for heaving to and powering down that the sloop doesn't, but the sloop's windward performance should be better. Around the Horn there will likely be a lot of upwind sailing that will be cold and wet. I think I'd go with the one with a longer waterline. Six of one, half dozen of the other. It will have more to do with you than the boat.
I think anyone who already has a CD or the Allied and feel comfortable and confident with them, and their skills, would stick with what they have. Neither shows a great advantage over the other IMO.

[Glenn.Brooks]

Lots of people in boats the size you are interested, have made the voyage successfully. Some have not and lost their boat in the process. Read up on what worked, and what didn’t…. Build your experience and your boat around that knowledge.

The other thing is, ignore the naysayers - and there are plenty… Many people who reply to your question have never experienced anything like southern ocean conditions. So regardless of what boat you ask about, the reply’s will often be their (negative) opinion about somebody else’s option.

Maybe a better approach is to think about how either of these two boats could be made ready for such an epic voyage around Cape Horn. Look into what each boat needs to accomplish the voyage. Updating rigging, sails, chain plate attachments, weather forecasting, etc, and preparing yourself mentally and physically are the keys to a successful voyage.

Also, lots of good information out there at the moment, about round the world sailing, cape to cape sailing, due to the high level of social media coverage of the GGR-2022. You could learn a lot by reviewing the current GGR UTube videos and equipment reports that the race organization has published. These boats are all only two or three feet longer than what you mentioned. So, in the same class, except at the peak of preparation for their voyage. The trick is, how do you take a boat to that level.

You could also immediately compare each boat’s performance data on Sailboatdata.com. Compare capsize data and other metrics for a rule of thumb comparison. Then go find the owners associations for each boat and ask the owners what they think - what needs to be upgraded, etc. finally, read the sailing stories and experiences of people who have actually rounded the horn. You’ll learn more from a few books than endless naysaying…

Good luck and go sailing!

[BobFord]

Look up Rosie Swale - rounded the Horn in a cat !!

[Be Free]

Originally Posted by Novice69

... Having peace of mind know you have a boat that is capable of such, would increase my confidence to venture further and add to consider which one to chose Lastly, forgive if this question appear hypothetically gullible or naive and not realistic.

To answer your question: I'd use the CD 33. It's probably a bit faster and it will almost certainly point higher. I don't want to take the trip so I want to get it over with as soon as possible and I'm more comfortable sailing into bad weather than having it chase me. Neither of those reasons actually address which boat is better for the voyage in a more general sense.

The question you ask would only be gullible, naive, or unrealistic if you were actually planning to take the trip. The unstated premise is that having a boat capable of taking a very dangerous trip (that you never intend to take) should increase your peace of mind. I can assure that that I have absolute faith in the seaworthiness of my boat and such a thought never crossed my mind when I was choosing it.

The first step is to realistically decide where and how you will actually use your boat. You would not take a motor home on a trip that was better suited to a sports car. The very things that make those boats suitable for your hypothetical trip may make them impossible to enjoy on the trips you actually intend to take.

It is important to know that you have the right boat for the voyage you are actually taking. It is much more important to understand that the peace of mind you seek primarily comes from knowing that you are ready for the voyage as well.

I commend you for reaching out and asking advice and wish you all be best in your quest. Remember: the value of answers increase when you make sure you are asking the right questions.

[thomm225]

Frank Guernsey rounded Cape Horn on a Lapworth Gladiator 24 with it's 3,850 lbs. of displacement. (no motor)

http://www.solopublications.com/sailglad.htm

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/gladiator-24

Which direction you go is important.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Frank Guernsey rounded Cape Horn on a Lapworth Gladiator 24 with it's 3,850 lbs. of displacement.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/gladiator-24

Which direction you go is important.

And then?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...258-story.html

[thomm225]

Great story here about the old sailing ships and their crews rounding Cape Horn.......time after time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbyeIXeVr7c

[Searles]

Mark Sinclair sailed Cape Horn in a full gale in a Lalo 34 ,and lived to tell the tail, check theGGR websight .most boats will do it most people won’t .⛵️⚓️

[Benz]

Either of those boats could be upgraded to withstand the hard sailing conditions, and if I was on the fence, I'd go for the one in best shape. Or the one with the interior layout that suited me best.
If they were both in the same condition and I was indifferent to layout, I'd choose the ketch as a better option for long-term singlehanding.
Your immediate concern should be: which one can be made ready to do what I want most easily and quickly. If one has a spongy deck core, the other one is better. Which one has a better engine setup? Which one has newer rigging? Which one will last longer before needing serious maintenance? How's the rudder hardware?
Either one is going to cost money to fit out and maintain, and if the Horn ever happens, a lot more money to optimize for that.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Novice69

seaworthiness of A Cape Dory 33 and Allied Seawind II.

Cape Horn in it's most challenging state

Design-wise and size-wise these two boats are really in the same general camp, and the differences between them in 'seaworthiness' are trivial. I personally would give a very small nod to the CD - very slightly deeper keel and higher ballast ratio and single mast (most of the AS II are ketches) all make it very slightly more able to go upwind.

More important would be the condition of the actual individual hulls you might purchase. Have they been well maintained, have they been damaged, have they been rebuilt (if so how well)? Either of these boats will be long in the tooth, and how well the individual boats have aged will be more significant that the design differences.

As to Cape Horn, I understand your intent with the question, but if you knew more you would realize it is a poor question. First, Cape Horn "in it's most challenging state" is unbelievably horrible and would easily crush either of these boats, and neither would survive. They are essentially too small for the potential breaking waves. When we were down there several boats were lost a year - a well-built heavy 37'er (bigger but in the same design space as the two you ask about) was lost with all hands - coming the 'easy' direction - just overwhelmed by the waves. 80'ers have been knocked down. And in Cape Horn full storm conditions neither of these boats will be able to make progress upwind, they will get driven back.

In 'the worst it has to offer' . . . you really simply don't want to be there on any boat . . . and a good skipper will figure out how to avoid being there.

A good skipper will hang out/tuck in, before the cape, if there is a forecast for storm force, and only do the hardest part in relatively decent weather. The skipper makes vastly more different than the boat (and this is true everywhere, not just cape horn).

[Orion Jim]

I’m biased since I’ve owned a Cape Dory 31 since ‘06 but I wouldn’t hesitate to sail my boat or the CD33 anywhere in the world. My CD31 only came as a cutter whereas the CD33 was available as a sloop or a cutter, my strong preference would be for the cutter rig as I have found it ideal. I have roller furling headsails and I have a myriad of sail combinations available to me to precisely match the weather conditions. Reducing sail in squalls is dramatically simplified when not dealing with hanked on sails on a pitching foredeck. A trip to the mast to deal with the mainsail is far less treacherous.
The CD33, as most of the Cape Dory’s are full keel Carl Alberg designs and make wonderful comfortable sea boats but they lack the pointing ability and top speed of their fin keeled brothers. The hulls are stout and the rigs are robust. All boats need to be prepped for sea so inspection and preparation is extremely important to provide the best chance for a trouble free passage.
I’ve singlehanded thousands of miles since purchasing Orion and that includes five runs to Bermuda. I’ve been through a full gale in the Gulf Stream and I’ve wallowed for hours in the Sargasso Sea waiting for a breath of air. At all times I’ve had full confidence in the seaworthiness of my vessel, and with diligent maintenance and updating I’ve suffered no dramatic episodes at sea.

[Setbud]

Originally Posted by Novice69

Ahoy,. Would please appreciate feedback on the seaworthiness of A Cape Dory 33 and Allied Seawind II. If one had no choice but to choose between the two for sailing the southern ocean and rounding Cape Horn in it's most challenging state, which of the two would you choose and why. Many thanks in advance.

Hello.
Two people I know bought an Orion 27 because they thought it would be a more stout boat than their lighter day sailor. When I was admiring their boat, he confessed that buying it was a mistake because with their lighter more maneuverable day sailor they went sailing all the time. With the Orion it was much more difficult to get the full-keeled boat in and out of the slip and around our very busy marina. So they didn’t sail as often.
So maybe the advice to buy a boat suited to where you plan to sail rather than the worst condition on the planet is good advice.
I understand your thinking though. After a 6,000 mile trip on a Westsail 43 I couldn’t consider anything smaller as a safe boat. But I eventually bought an old Catalina 30 that I sailed for 10 years and had a blast, sailing 1-2 days a week year-round. Easy to single-hand is very important if you want to sail a lot. I’m now on a newer Catalina 30 that I plan to sail for the next 10 years. Then I will be in my 80’s and I may downsize.

[Juggerknot]

Originally Posted by Novice69

Ahoy,. Would please appreciate feedback on the seaworthiness of A Cape Dory 33 and Allied Seawind II. If one had no choice but to choose between the two for sailing the southern ocean and rounding Cape Horn in it's most challenging state, which of the two would you choose and why. Many thanks in advance.

I'm partial to the CD, and while I never rounded the Horn in mine, I found myself in hairy conditions from time to time and live to write about it. Either are venerable and capable craft, go for it, it'll make for great bar stories or an equally spectacular obituary.