Rudder stiff/stuck???

[TheDrunkenKetch]

Hey all.

I just purchased a '78 Morgan OI 415 and had her hauled out to do a bottom job and cutlass bearing. While I was replacing some minor rot in the aft cabin, I noticed the Hynautic steering cylinder had a slow drip from one of the fittings. Replaced the fitting, topped off fluid and repressurized the system to 28psi(a little high to see if it would leak again). No leak, so I dropped it back down to 25psi and turned the wheel to bleed the system. The wheel was extremely stiff and difficult to turn.

Called one of my buddies over to help and had him turn the wheel while I watched for leaks and the gauge. It started dripping very slightly and the gauge spiked above 30psi when he turned the wheel then down to 20psi when it wasn't moving. Thinking it was something wrong with the steering cylinder, I removed it and inspected it.

For sh*ts and giggles, I disconnected the autopilot arm and tried to turn the rudder and it was stuck, wouldn't move. Went outside the boat and tried to turn the rudder from outside by hand and still wouldn't even budge. Is this the sign of bad rudder bearings? Or am I just a weakling and rudders on bigger sailboats supposed to be super stiff?

I don't know why but it makes sense in my head that the rudder bearings failed and forcing the steering wheel to turn spiked the pressure in the steering cylinder causing the fitting and possibly a seal in it to break and leak.

Let me know what y'all think cause I'm kinda stumped on this one.
Thanks.

TLR
Steering wheel is extremely stiff. Hynautic steering cylinder has slow leak. Removed steering cylinder and autopilot arm. Rudder is stuck and cannot move by hand. Are the rudder bearings bad?

[ItDepends]

A rudder on a 40 foot boat should swing easily with gentle pressure on the trailing edge. My 53 footer's skeg hung rudder moves at a hand's touch, even while moving the whole steering system.

Unfortunately, I am not familiar with your boat's mechanical details, so can't help with why. But, it is a really common boat, and SOMEBODY can help....

[carstenb]

you should be able to turn that rudder easily by hand. If it is stuck that hard, it is probably more than failed bearings. Difficult to imagine that a failed bearing set could freeze the rudder like that.

I'd be worried that the rudder stock is bent or the quadrant is somehow bent/caught on something

Since you have it on the hard, why not drop the rudder and check it?

[TheDrunkenKetch]

Originally Posted by carstenb

you should be able to turn that rudder easily by hand. If it is stuck that hard, it is probably more than failed bearings. Difficult to imagine that a failed bearing set could freeze the rudder like that.

I'd be worried that the rudder stock is bent or the quadrant is somehow bent/caught on something

Since you have it on the hard, why not drop the rudder and check it?

My buddy and I just got the rudder off. The upper bearing in the hull looks pretty bad. Although, I don't really know how to check since this is my first time pulling a rudder and seeing these bearings. We stopped for the night but I'll post pics in the morning.

How do I go about checking the rudder stock making sure it's straight or bent? They don't look bent to the naked eye though.

[TheDrunkenKetch]

Originally Posted by ItDepends

A rudder on a 40 foot boat should swing easily with gentle pressure on the trailing edge. My 53 footer's skeg hung rudder moves at a hand's touch, even while moving the whole steering system.

Unfortunately, I am not familiar with your boat's mechanical details, so can't help with why. But, it is a really common boat, and SOMEBODY can help....

That's what I was thinking too. It should be free and smooth without any binding, I believe.

Basically, I have a hydraulic steering piston that attaches to the rudder post pivot arm. The hydraulic lines run to a proportioning valve, then to a self bleeding/fill tank then up to a junction box on the pedestal.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by TheDrunkenKetch

My buddy and I just got the rudder off. The upper bearing in the hull looks pretty bad. Although, I don't really know how to check since this is my first time pulling a rudder and seeing these bearings. We stopped for the night but I'll post pics in the morning.

How do I go about checking the rudder stock making sure it's straight or bent? They don't look bent to the naked eye though.

If you have a long enough straight edge, it will tell you. Failing that, a long piece of straight wood or metal will give you an indication

Unless the bearings are completely seized, you should have been able to turn the rudder. Is the stock rusted or pitted? If you've pulled the bearings, post a pic so we can see

[Don C L]

I agree with Carsten. You can also sight down the shaft to give you an idea too. How many bearings does it have? 2 or 3?

[TheDrunkenKetch]

Originally Posted by carstenb

If you have a long enough straight edge, it will tell you. Failing that, a long piece of straight wood or metal will give you an indication

Unless the bearings are completely seized, you should have been able to turn the rudder. Is the stock rusted or pitted? If you've pulled the bearings, post a pic so we can see

I don't know what the proper term for them is, bearing or washer or something else entirely. This is my first time pulling a rudder. There is pitting on the upper rudder post and some scarring on the lower rudder post. Another guy at the yard came over and said my bearing was good and just pack it with marine grease with new Delrin washer thingys on top and bottom. Here's some pics.

[Don C L]

That slot in the rudder post, the key way, may have had a key that fit in it. (I am not sure about that rudder.) It is probably a key (pin) made of bronze. I wonder if it fell out somewhere in the process of pulling the rudder? It would appear that, rather than bearing issues, something was jammed in there.

[Don C L]

In your third picture down, the shaft shows polishing and the key way looks damaged there. I’d want to know why.

[deblen]

This vid may help on reassembly. Your stuffing box/packing gland /rudder port may not be identical-but this gives you the basic idea:
Cheers/Len

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKAkYH1AhVo&t=154s

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Don C L

In your third picture down, the shaft shows polishing and the key way looks damaged there. I’d want to know why.

I agree here. I would think that there should be a key in that keyway. Everything certainly needs a good cleaning up before you can tell if things are right.

[TheDrunkenKetch]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I agree here. I would think that there should be a key in that keyway. Everything certainly needs a good cleaning up before you can tell if things are right.

I'm using a light copper wool and vinegar to clean off some of the marine calcium but it's really caked on there where the shoe is and inside the bearing. Are there any other tips for getting that stuff off? It's like a barnacle type material that's built up inside the bearing and shoe. I don't want to use a scraper or pick and damage the inner wall.

Side note, I know what the bearing is now(sleeve inside the rudder hole glassed into the hull). How hard is that to replace and where do I get the brass/bronze pipe to replace it?

I have the rudder post key, had it soaking in vinegar to help clean it. It does fit super tight in that slot though.

[TheDrunkenKetch]

Originally Posted by Don C L

That slot in the rudder post, the key way, may have had a key that fit in it. (I am not sure about that rudder.) It is probably a key (pin) made of bronze. I wonder if it fell out somewhere in the process of pulling the rudder? It would appear that, rather than bearing issues, something was jammed in there.

I believe, we disconnected everything from the top before taking off the shoe and dropping the rudder. Disconnected the hydraulic steering arm and autopilot arm, then removed the pivoting arm and it's key, and lastly was the cap with the Teflon packing.

[flyingnut40]

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