Sail set ups/rigging - smaller sails vs reefing?

[GreatLakeSailor]

In researching boats something that I am figuring is for boats of the same size blue water vs inland the sail set up (including mast, rigging, not just "sails") is smaller for a blue water rig. That should be rather obvious as to why - inland = lighter, less consistent winds.



Question - what does one "loose" with reefing a larger "inland" sail set up? As in - taking an inland rig further out.



Or is it just a matter of how "tuned" the whole rig is to the specific environment it is going to be operated in and the environments between blue water vs inland is a smaller sail set up vs a larger sail set up, but that is just a matter of correctness and not necessarily an absolute one way or the other?



I realize there is such a thing as having too much sail area. Hence the ability to reef and trim. But you can't go back the other way - if all your sails are out in lighter winds thats all ya got.



What say all?


I realize there are other differences with hull displacement, etc, but the point I'd like to stick to is the sails and rigging them. Yeah with a smaller sail set up you could drop the mast height and get some better stability too I'd say. Though, with a reefed main you'd drop it down on the mast anyway = you're dropping the power of the sail down lower in both sail area/power and height on the mast.

[Rucksta]

A tall main sailed reefed loses aspect ratio making the boat less close winded.

A main cut to match the rig can help reduce the impact and find a workable compromise.

Highly tuneable rigs (fractional) and powerful sail handling systems widen the sweet spot of the compromise.

You can't get the best of both worlds but you can come close.
85% would be a good target to exceed.

[goboatingnow]

It’s a rather incorrect comparison to suggest that blue water ( which is a misnomer anyway ) sails are different to “ inland “ , I presume you mean “ costal “

Some of the wildest conditions and peak winds can be found off coasts whereas deep sea sailing often has very consistent conditions with long deep swells.

In my opinion sail handling is more important then sail configuration.

Most sailing is carried out in light winds rather then heavy.

Boats with multiple sails , multiple masts ,these are all things to break and go wrong

It’s not a simple comparison most of the decisions are merely personal preferences of the sailors ( or simple conformation bias )

[Jim Cate]

You can reef a big rig down. You can not un-reef a short rig up. In our many years of cruising experience we have spent far more days in too light airs than in too heavy.

Draw your own conclusions...

Jim

[roverhi]

2nd what Jim said. If 4knots or less boat speed and you turn on the engine, by all means get a short rig. If you are a sailor and want to move in lighter conditions and want to avoid constant use of the engine, get a boat with a generous sail plan. Well set up reefing/furling is easy but you can't add more sail than your rig is set up for.

Open ocean, we've been in light wind conditions lasting more than a week several times. Sailing performance was a blessing that meant we didn't have to turn on the damned thumper. Never had a time when we wished we had a shorter mast or less maximum sail area.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

You can reef a big rig down. You can not un-reef a short rig up. In our many years of cruising experience we have spent far more days in too light airs than in too heavy.

Draw your own conclusions...

Jim

And reef early. I love the un-reef up.

[TrentePieds]

I went back to your previous thread regarding small small boats. Specifically this:

"What I'm looking for is a boat like a Hunter, Classic, or O'Day, 70's-80's vintage, with:
- beam width between 8' and 8'6"
- diesel inboard
- wheel steer (or the ability to convert to)
- Interior accommodating several days to a couple weeks of time onboard
--- Preferably a gimbal-mounted range, but that may not be too hard to upgrade to (looks like most gimbals are 1 axis - roll, not pitch, so maybe an upgrade to dual axis would be best - smaller boats will pitch more anyway)"

I commend you for doing your "homework" before you commit to the expense of a boat. TrentePieds is a boat that would suit you admirably IF you are sure that what you specify is what you really want :-)! But TP is NOT for sale. There are, however, NUMEROUS designs that will fit your bill.

However, I think perhaps you are starting from "the wrong place". The distinction between "blue water boats" and others that is bruited about is the glossy mags is totally "out to lunch"! You don't care whether the water is blue or emerald green. What you DO care about is something called "sea state". This is so fundamental that the Europeans - being the born bureaucrats they are - have formalized this into a classification system that assigns a letter to factory built boats to indicate the maximum sea state the particular ​make and model of boat is (in the bureaucrats' opinion) fit for!

So here is a reference to the scale of sea states:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_sea_scale

Because the “quality” of waves is ultimately determined by the strength of the wind blowing over the water (along with one or two geological factors), sea states are closely related to wind strengths. These are given by the Beaufort scale which you will find here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale

Boats are designed – or should be designed – for the sea state in which the owner intends to operate them. “Blue water” (better: “ocean going") has nothing to do with it. You will know that Lake Ontario (or Lake Michigan if that is where you are) can be pretty snarly!

Now to your point about the amount of sail for a given size of boat: There is a formula (which we can come back to later) that gives the area of sail to the weight (“displacement”) of boats, much like you can express as a ratio the amount of horsepower a car has to its weight. Our ratio is called the “Sail Area to Displacement Ratio”, and given as SA/D. But it is really only meaningful as a design parameter and, in consequence, as a means of comparing disparate boats.

We take it that a SA/D of, say, 13 is low and suitable only for heavy weather, e.g. sea state 5 for a thirty foot boat. We also take it that a SA/D of 19 is high and that a thirty footer in sea state 5 would have to be reefed down. In the Salish Sea where I sail, there are many summer days when the wind might be 4 knots or so. Then I wish for a SA/D of 26 :-)! In the winter, it often blows 40 knots and then, even with a puny SA/D of 13, I have to reef.

Something else you need to think about: If you wish to race your boat, it must be able to sail “close to the wind”. That requires a “high aspect ratio” rig of the kind you see on most boats. A/R of 6:1 is often cited as being “good”. Well, yes and no. If it's a-cruising you would go, you are going to spend a LOT of time “off the wind”. Then, ultimately, when you are “running before”, the ideal A/R is 1:1! That is why square riggers were rigged as they were.

You choose WHERE to sail, and IN WHAT CONDITIONS. Then, but only then, can you determine what kind of rig will suit you. There are innumerable compromises to be made. Again I commend you for doing your homework and I think that that homework should include going sailing in OPB (Other People's Boats), perhaps even going to a sailing school, so you can get a PRACTICAL feel for what makes for comfortable cruising.

Others have addressed your lust for a wheel. In a "proper" cruising boat up to a size well beyond anything most yotties can afford, a wheel HAS NO PLACE!. The reason for that is that a tiller requires no physical strength to handle, and it tells you in its gentle manner just exactly what the boat requires of you! That is something a wheel can never do!

A proper cruising boat is NOT a RAM 350.

As for the gimballed stove: A yacht underway is no place to cook a la Escoffier! What I will do, however, is whip you up a killer lobscouse :-)!

All the best :-)

TrentePieds

[goboatingnow]

Much of what’s written in the previous post is very true

Newbies always look at statistical comparisons, blue versus costal. Sailors go sailing and over time work out what works for them.

Secondly every boat is a massive compromise , interior voice versus sail ability , creature comforts etc. But a boat for the 80 % of the use case not the 20 %

A good sailor can get a bad boat across oceans. A poor sailer can’t get a good boat out of a marina.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Much of what’s written in the previous post is very true

Newbies always look at statistical comparisons, blue versus costal. Sailors go sailing and over time work out what works for them.

Secondly every boat is a massive compromise , interior voice versus sail ability , creature comforts etc. But a boat for the 80 % of the use case not the 20 %

A good sailor can get a bad boat across oceans. A poor sailer can’t get a good boat out of a marina.

[thomm225]

Another way to look at this is that the main way you can get in trouble is with too much sail up and being short handed crew wise.

I have had this happen several times as a single hander but luckily for me I only had a 5-7 hour sail to get to the shelter of a creek or small bay off the main Chesapeake Bay or Atlantic Ocean so I could get the sail down.

Usually I can furl the jib but have had the line come out of the furler once and a jammed furler a couple times both in big wind in a bad spot.

If this had happened well offshore, (too much sail up when big wind came up suddenly and staying) it would have been a big problem which is why it's good to get some practice in big wind with your boat not setup perfectly......in a relatively safe place like 20 miles offshore or less.

Sometimes as a single hander you cannot go forward to lower sail in certain situations.

I have never had a problem in light winds that could have sink my boat.....

[Chris Cringle]

I would estimate that 15% of the time, offshore sailors have too much wind. 10% of the time the wind is "just right". And 75% of the time, the crew is looking for some place to hang another sail. BUT......when that wind goes from just right to too much, you want to be able to shorten quickly.

[Enfant Du Vent]

I second Jim Cate & roverhi.


Hated using the motor, was much happier sailing slowly....had a relatively tall cruising rig. Once I learned to reef early in strong wind, life was simpler--and I spilled less beer. <grin>


All my sailing was coastal and offshore. Hell, I once was going down wind--doing 3

knots under bare poles.


But if you're ONLY a Great Lakes sailor this may all be irrelevant.

[GreatLakeSailor]

All,



Good stuff in the replies. I think that covers all I was after with my question.



As to digging up old threads/info - that adds a lot of depth, and perhaps a lot more complexity, to the discussion that wasn't on the forefront of my mind and what I asked more simply in the comparisons of, what appears to be more technically defined as, the differences in "aspect ratios".


There certainly is lots to learn. I agree with an earlier post something to the affect of starting somewhere then learning and tweaking as things progress.


That is a good point from post #8 of every boat being a "massive compromise". I am sure that is a matter of perspective as to what constitutes "massive", however I can understand every rig compromising in a lot of places at different times in various conditions.



As to racing - I'm no where near wanting to get in to that.


Again, I was just after a better explanation on the sail set ups from those more knowledgeable here. To that point the questions were answered and I appreciate the discussion! Great thread.

[roland stockham]

It is not just size that matters. In light winds you want light cloth and deep cut to maximize power. I heavy weather you want heavy cloth and flat cut. All sails have a design wind speed range below which they become inefficient and above which they will be damaged. This applies more to head sails than to mains which have a wider range. For serious cruising the ideal is 2 full sets, one for light winds and one heavy. Few people have the room or budget so more likely one main and 2 sets of head sails. On a cutter some compromise by having a light airs sail out front and a flatter heavier cut on the stay-sail but it is not ideal. Others go to other way with 2 sets of head-sails plus a goaster. The often seen setup of a single furling head-sail has dire performance in heavy weather and if it gets damaged or blown out (back third stretched out of shape) you have no backup

[bailsout]

All my sails are hank-ons, and I don’t reef any more. On a ketch it’s easier to just drop the main and run mizzen with staysail and headsail or just mizzen and staysail. And I have to go leave the cockpit for all of those maneuvers. It does get a little worrisome when I get caught in big winds with the genoa and I have to douse that, especially when I’m singlehandling.