Sailors destiny?

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by fxykty

We have a full battened, very large roach mainsail and can slab reef at any point of sail. Closer than 60* AWA is easiest as the sail can be eased and lies off the rig, but with certain techniques can be reefed even dead downwind. So I don’t think batten length has anything to do with it.

We do keep the jib drawing so that the boat has some way on and doesn’t just wallow. Downwind that takes some wind pressure off as well.

Probably you have a high end batt car system which makes this possible.

Ours is working fine, but not once there is pressure in the sail or worse when the sail goes against the shrouds...

[hpeer]

First and foremost I much appreciate the after action write up. It is a rare and valuable thing of value to others. It also must have been difficult and painful to create.
Thank you.

We have been lucky to have 2 boats and neither has their main sheet in the cockpit.

My Wife has great difficulty steering and has jibed many times. I need to be especially mindful of this. On the 44’er, CC with end of boom sheeting, I got a Dutchman boom break and keep it tensioned at all times. It does not stop the jibe but sure does take the sting out of it.

Our main is about 550 sq ft. and we have a Tides sail track. The sail will not come down willingly with pressure on the shrouds, I doubt any sail will no matter the car system. I suspect the difference between boats has more to do with sail area and shroud placement. Take the pressure off the shrouds and the sail comes down like a rock.

The 33’er has an extra ling boom and the traveller is behind the cockpit. I have no “vang” but have arranged 2 lines that run mid boom, to afore mid ships and back to the cockpit. Between them the serve the purpose of a vang but also work as a preventer. And this main is only about 350 sq ft. Still nothing to sneeze at. The bang/preventer makes tacking a bit more cumbersome, but is still possible single handed. And having the boom controlled removes a lot of stress.

The small boat also has a gallows forward of the cockpit, which is great for securing the boom. When I hit the lottery I will have one on the big boat as well.

[grantmc]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Wow, this is almost a replica of the Platino tragedy a few years earlier just north of NZ. A similarly sized sloop monohull broke its mainsheet during an accidental gybe, causing uncontrolled boom movements that killed two people. Very, very sad...

Fxykty has a great memory and her point is very valid. For those interested here's a link to the Maritime NZ report of the tragic events aboard Platino that cold sad morning in 2016.

As with many such stories the preventer on Platino started a chain reaction of events and there are lessons to be learnt from reading the report above.


But in the story of SV Escape taken the article there are many similarities. It is another tragic story and I'm reluctant to draw conclusions or point fingers from the comfort of my, today at least, armchair.

The article summarising the event does though state the following:
Offshore, especially short-handed, crew should understand how to perform all anticipated and unanticipated maneuvers.

Here, the captain was the only crew member who raised or lowered the mainsail. The operation was complicated as it involved a large boom furler with a hidden electric mandrel, a main halyard controlled by an electric winch on the deck near the 100 foot mast, and a hydraulic boom vang with controls at the helm and mast. The main halyard was secured at the mast with an unusual braided textile constrictor clutch, think toy finger cuffs, instead of a traditional clutch or even halyard car on a vertical track.

None of the electric/hydraulic buttons or halyards were labeled.

On offshore passages, all members of the crew, regardless of their experience, should at the very least be given instruction, if not practice, in how to operate the main controls.

Moreover, a language known by all crew should be agreed upon and used during passages. Interacting with the chartplotter and instruments and the satellite phone was difficult for the non-German speaking crew especially when quick actions were required. Understanding what Karl was yelling to Annemarie at that critical moment could perhaps have made a difference, at the very least may have provided an explanation for what went wrong.


I've done many trips as crew including on a very powerful Open 60 footer sloop. Many times I've been aboard with crew with limited or even no previous sailing experience. And that includes several times people with limited English. And it's very common for only the owner to have a depth of knowledge of the workings of the boat where to find stuff is found on the vessel.


Isn't this the common reality of many passages? The owner/skipper plus perhaps their partner finds whoever they can that is available and can do the trip to help them sail a long passage?

[hpeer]

Grant,

Thanks for that summary.

I would add that main sheet placement was a critical factor. This is a boobytrap in the yachts design and should be avoided, especially on larger yachts.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Grant,

Thanks for that summary.

I would add that main sheet placement was a critical factor. This is a boobytrap in the yachts design and should be avoided, especially on larger yachts.

Where do you put it?

Mid boom sheeting puts enormous loads on the boom and is likely not possible for larger mainsails.

So perhaps booms should be even longer, or the working area of the cockpit shorter, so that the mainsheet can be behind the cockpit? Or instead, cabins should be longer and cockpits shorter so the mainsheet can always be in front of the companionway? Large open cockpits are a racing thing.

Or, as many catamarans do it, place the mainsheet and traveller behind and above the crew on an arch?

Certainly longer travellers that allow for shorter sheeting lengths could help. The mainsheet in this case had no traveller at all - the hydraulic vang provided leech tension and the sheet only controlled athwartship movement of the boom. That’s a “simplification” that perhaps isn’t suitable for cruising boats.

Finally, preventers seem to be after thoughts and not designed controls, leading to inadequate and unsafe as hoc solutions. Should boom preventers be designed and provisioned on boats as are other parts of the rig? Do boom brake systems size up for larger boats?

At the risk of inflaming the discussion, could one posit that catamarans are inherently safer for cruising as they don’t broach, don’t gybe unexpectedly, and generally have their mainsail controls and booms well out of the way of their crews?

[hpeer]

In the NZ instance it initially had the traveller on an arch, removed in refit.
Hunters do this, traveller on arch.
CC puts traveller behind cockpit.
My small boat has a long boo to move traveller to rear deck.
It can be done.
Number of deaths attributed to it, let alone injuries we never hear of, seem to make it an issue.
NZ investigators stepped over the issue.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by fxykty

...So perhaps booms should be even longer, or the working area of the cockpit shorter, so that the mainsheet can be behind the cockpit?...

Big fast sailboats are often a dream to sail in normal conditions but quickly become a handful when overpowered.

One problem is that the mainsheet, when full out on a boat like that CNB, is 35 feet of loose line, often two parts, which, in an uncontrolled gybe or in a flogging situation, will whip around in a dangerous fashion even ahead of the mainsheet attachment point. No place in the cockpit ahead of the traveler or mainsheet attachment is safe from that loose sheet.

It is critical to pull in the sheet as the boat comes up into the wind so that the slack is taken out of it, and further, so that the boom's ability to fly around is limited. One problem with the mainsheet system such as on the CNB is that the electric winch is too slow to take in sufficient slack in a sudden round up. When possible the mainsheet can be tailed by hand to take in the slack and only sheeted with the winch when it is mostly in. This requires a quick thinking and strong person on the mainsheet and further highlights just how dangerous large, powerful, sailboats can be.

On boats I have been on a round up is often less dangerous because the boat rarely goes beyond a close reaching attitude (not head to wind) and the mainsail and sheet are out to leeward, but if the helmsperson's steering or the design of the boat results in head to wind or nearly head to wind attitude, the whole cockpit is a danger zone. I don't know what happens on a catamaran with a full main when the wind overpowers the rudders. Does this ever happen?

I don't know the solution to this and it's unfortunate that people are buying boats that carry such a hugely dangerous potential and worse, going into it without the awareness of that or skills and training on how to handle the boat (or maybe they have the awareness, skills, and training, but sometimes it just gets away from them).

[hpeer]

I think there are “solutions” but they require compromises. Is it more iportant to have that sexy cockpit or a safe cockpit?

Boom breaks can help the situation but add some complexity when gybing.

Perhaps it is possible to design a bo break that limits the booms horizontal rate of travel. The faster it tries to move the more resistance?

[hpeer]

Another photo of the main sheet attachment.

Remember this was NOT the origional design but a modification done in the refit.

Somewhere I read the history of the boat with a pre-refit photo. Very briefly she was damaged by a fore on another boat, then extensively refit. at which point the traveller arch was removed.

At least that is my recollection, if any ine has pre- refit photos that would be helpful.

[fxykty]

Walking the dock at our marina I see a few larger racer/cruiser monohulls with aft wheels and a mainsheet with no traveller immediately in front of the wheels, between them and the rest of the cockpit and companionway. So it seems to be a common feature of these kinds of boats. This is developed from race boats, with very wide and open cockpits. Take a look at Wallys https://www.wally.com/wallywind/index.html and they’re all like that. With no arch or bimini these boats look sleek.

All good when the boom is controlled, but dangerous if boom control is lost. But does this only apply to electrically/hydraulically controlled mainsheet/boom systems on larger sloops? The 2-tonner that Wings has got has a wide open cockpit and mainsheet in the middle of it, but presumably all manually controlled and less of a danger?

In a similar vein, while they’re beautiful boats, I’ve never been a fan of the classic Swan double cockpit, with high bridgedeck between the cockpits supporting the mainsheet and traveller. Movement between the wheel and the forward cockpit and companionway means getting up high and passing the mainsheet - not that comfortable in bigger seas. Grand Soleil and a few others also do this.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by fxykty

The 2-tonner that Wings has got has a wide open cockpit and mainsheet in the middle of it, but presumably all manually controlled and less of a danger?

It's a smaller boat and a much smaller mainsail and a strong sailor can overhaul it almost all the way in without the winch.

But it is still dangerous.

A bigger boat with 4 times the square footage and twice as much mainsheet length is much more dangerous.

In all cases it is essential for safety to keep the mainsail under control when turning into the wind.

[longjonsilver]

So sad to read about this tragedy. My take away from this is that there is a right size boat for ocean voyaging for each person/couple. A boat too big might just be dangerous in critical situations. Just like with houses and RVs people want to impress others and buy bigger than they need. Buy the right sized boat for YOUR needs.
jon

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

So sad to read about this tragedy. My take away from this is that there is a right size boat for ocean voyaging for each person/couple. A boat too big might just be dangerous in critical situations. Just like with houses and RVs people want to impress others and buy bigger than they need. Buy the right sized boat for YOUR needs.
jon

I don't think many sailors buy a bigger boat to impress others. Mostly they are people who love what a big boat brings in terms of accommodations and living space, as well as the beauty and the perception of speed that they can deliver.

And in normal conditions these boats, such as the CNB, are docile and a delight to sail. The potential for danger may not be recognized, or may seem distant.

So, if they can afford it they are tempted to go for it.

Of course the pride of ownership and admiration of others is satisfying.

But around the world there must be owners of bigger performance boats to whom this accident, and others, must be a wake up call.

Instead of thinking, "I hope that never happens to us" they should start thinking, "What can we do or learn to help prevent that and make us safer?"

[Joli]

This article goes into a detailed explanation of the events and how they cascaded into the tragedy.

https://www.bwsailing.com/anatomy-of-a-tragedy-at-sea/

[Joli]

Originally Posted by wingssail

In all cases it is essential for safety to keep the mainsail under control when turning into the wind.

And there in lies the problem. It should not be necessary to turn upwind to reef.

For the past 20 years, 40,000 miles, we've owned and sailed a C&C 61. It has a 93' rig, which is basically the same size as the CNB 66 rig. The loads from a big rig mated to a big heavy boat are large. Our sheet loads can be as high as 16,000 pounds, our mainsheet purchase is about 400 to 1. The CNB has similar loads.

The boat in question was fitted with in boom furling. In boom furling requires precise control of the angle between the mast and the boom. On the CNB the operator has to be at the gooseneck to watch the furl and make adjustments. The mainsheet has to be trimmed in and the boat needs to be motored slowly to weather. All this is fine on a calm day but dangerous when offshore in less them pleasant weather, which is the condition the CNB ran into.

We reef with slab reefing and Harken cars. We have downhauls on all reefs and can grind the sail down if needed while sailing down wind.

I understand the yacht builders desire to sell the convenience of these systems but the reality when things go pear shaped can be tragic. The size of the boat isn't the problem, the complex and finicky sail handling automation is.