Sailors destiny?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Joli

And there in lies the problem. It should not be necessary to turn upwind to reef.

For the past 20 years, 40,000 miles, we've owned and sailed a C&C 61. It has a 93' rig, which is basically the same size as the CNB 66 rig. The loads from a big rig mated to a big heavy boat are large. Our sheet loads can be as high as 16,000 pounds, our mainsheet purchase is about 400 to 1. The CNB has similar loads.

The boat in question was fitted with in boom furling. In boom furling requires precise control of the angle between the mast and the boom. On the CNB the operator has to be at the gooseneck to watch the furl and make adjustments. The mainsheet has to be trimmed in and the boat needs to be motored slowly to weather. All this is fine on a calm day but dangerous when offshore in less them pleasant weather, which is the condition the CNB ran into.

We reef with slab reefing and Harken cars. We have downhauls on all reefs and can grind the sail down if needed while sailing down wind.

I understand the yacht builders desire to sell the convenience of these systems but the reality when things go pear shaped can be tragic. The size of the boat isn't the problem, the complex and finicky sail handling automation is.

Absolutely true. This story still shocks me. First of all, I’m shocked that the situation happened in the first place. And happened twice. I have quite a fear of tensioned up running rigging. I try not to stay anywhere near it. I don’t know what happened to get both of these people in the wrong spot on the boat when the boom was out of control. It’s very unfortunate.

And then, accidents do happen. But for them to both die from this is really really crazy. It doesn’t seem like it would be life-threatening injuries. Unless maybe it was just bleeding. Really crazy stuff.

The take away is definitely that when things go wrong they can go very wrong. So think several moves ahead.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by Joli

This article goes into a detailed explanation of the events and how they cascaded into the tragedy.

https://www.bwsailing.com/anatomy-of-a-tragedy-at-sea/

Well worth the read- many lessons there.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Well worth the read- many lessons there.

? Not sure anything new here, except for the clear demonstration of a key drawback of in-boom reefing systems.

What we already knew:
- Reef early
- Clear communications with acknowledgements and common language
- Defined standard operating procedures
- Don’t trust the weather forecast over the observed conditions

Tragic situation with both owners dying.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by fxykty

? Not sure anything new here, except for the clear demonstration of a key drawback of in-boom reefing systems.

What we already knew:
- Reef early
- Clear communications with acknowledgements and common language
- Defined standard operating procedures
- Don’t trust the weather forecast over the observed conditions

Tragic situation with both owners dying.

I'm very sorry that these people died, I can't quite understand that, they were awake and talking and well cared for after the accident, but then?

But, Fxykty, you did not mention the one key, and critical, error: The mainsail did not come in as they were coming up into the wind.

From the report:

Annemarie readied the mainsheet in preparation for furling the main. As Escape came into the wind, the 2nd Mate noticed the boom was not centered per usual. During every other reef, the mainsheet was properly tensioned, centering it as Escape turned into the wind.

It was howling out there, big waves sweeping the vessel, a really shocking and scary situation. The main didn't come in. Somebody or something didn't do its job. It was noticed, maybe by more than one person, but no one gave the alarm or gave any order or took any action to remedy that. The helmsman could have tried to turn back down wind. The owner could have given an order. But it was like, in that instant, they all froze. Then the owner came back to tend to the main sheet and in moment that scythe got both of them.

In 40+ knots with that main flogging and the boom swinging the mainsheet would have been like an iron bar, and just as deadly.

It is easy for us to say what they did wrong, but this specific issue might not have been on anybody's radar. I mean who'd have anticipated what could happen if the main does not come in on a maneuver like that. The main was flogging but the alarm bells didn't really go off. Now they will.

On my boat, only a 43' boat, with a main 1/4 as big, we had an injury from a flying main sheet. During a race this year in 25 knots, while jibing the asymmetrical kite, the main trimmer didn't anticipate the actual jibe and the mainsheet caught him in the back and threw him OVER the spinnaker sheet trimmer. He hit the deck (a winch actually) head first and it knocked him briefly out and badly cut his chin. So I know that the mainsheet, when not controlled, can be deadly. We all need to know this.

I don't blame the crew or owners of the CNB. Things happen fast and get out of hand and sometimes your mind is just not keeping up with the situation. In critical, emergency situations, people get caught out.

But we can add to your list:

The defined operating procedure when reefing the main, the main sheet comes in.

[jparriott]

I have a Swan 53 with a bridge deck mounted traveler. I also have a V boom, installed by the previous owner, that is a heavy SOB. Even if the main's sheeted in tight, if we head up into any kind of a sea (I'm talking little 2-3 ft swell), that boom will start to pump from side to side... up and down... Dangerously, frighteningly so. Boom vang only slows it down a little. Second time it happened, my wife was in tears watching me dodge the boom while hooking on the preventer. I'm an idiot that I allowed there to even be a second time. Our inviolate rule, now, is to have a preventer, or our boom brake, attached before luffing the sail to drop or reef. After reading this, I count myself a very lucky sailor.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by fxykty

? Not sure anything new here, except for the clear demonstration of a key drawback of in-boom reefing systems.

What we already knew:
- Reef early
- Clear communications with acknowledgements and common language
- Defined standard operating procedures
- Don’t trust the weather forecast over the observed conditions

Tragic situation with both owners dying.

I read that the boom was not secured and the main sheet was free or with slack. A main aloft on a secured boom / sheet would not allow the boom to sweep the cockpit. I’ve seen more people injured by sheets than the boom. A swinging boom and flying sheets is a deadly combination, whether a furling or traditional main.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

I read that the boom was not secured and the main sheet was free or with slack. A main aloft on a secured boom / sheet would not allow the boom to sweep the cockpit. I’ve seen more people injured by sheets than the boom. A swinging boom and flying sheets is a deadly combination, whether a furling or traditional main.

Yes, loose booms are very dangerous in and of themselves, as well as the falls of the main sheet (and jib sheets and clews of course).

Regarding the Destiny incident, we unfortunately don’t and will not have any knowledge as to why the main sheet was not brought in as the boat turned into the wind. That lack was the precipitating event in this event.

[Knotical]

I understand to reef an in-boom furling main one has to come into the wind; but if the furler jams or you can’t come into the wind can you have a downhaul attached to the halyard shackle, release the halyard and winch the main down with the downhaul? The sail could still be flogging on deck but then you can secure it quickly with a couple of lines/sailties until conditions improve.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Knotical

I understand to reef an in-boom furling main one has to come into the wind; but if the furler jams or you can’t come into the wind can you have a downhaul attached to the halyard shackle, release the halyard and winch the main down with the downhaul? The sail could still be flogging on deck but then you can secure it quickly with a couple of lines/sailties until conditions improve.

This sounds very simple and easy to achieve in moderate conditions on a small boat but I don't think you have an appreciation the power in such a large boat in the conditions that were experienced. 200 sqm of uncontrolled sail flaying around on deck is unlikely to approachable let alone tameable with a couple of sail-ties.



Apart from your observations concerning in boom furling, that I fully agree with, they suffer all sorts of other problems; since they do not have cars the batten compression against the mast track causes considerable wear and can induce massive friction by buckling the leach line; the mandrel has to be immensely stiff to facilitate furling and therefore prevents any foot adjustments; even the slightest bending of the mandrel can compromise the goose-neck bearing or cause the furl to run off and jam. Oversold as convenience sail control system the engineering is complicated and is a poor solution when compared to the simplicity of slab reefing and IMO has no place offshore.



The only half way successful manifestation of in boom reefing I have seen was on an Aerorig where the sails are "set", the boom angle is fixed and the main is always pointing upwind when reefing regardless of the point of sail.

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

This sounds very simple and easy to achieve in moderate conditions on a small boat but I don't think you have an appreciation the power in such a large boat in the conditions that were experienced. 200 sqm of uncontrolled sail flaying around on deck is unlikely to approachable let alone tameable with a couple of sail-ties.



Apart from your observations concerning in boom furling, that I fully agree with, they suffer all sorts of other problems; since they do not have cars the batten compression against the mast track causes considerable wear and can induce massive friction by buckling the leach line; the mandrel has to be immensely stiff to facilitate furling and therefore prevents any foot adjustments; even the slightest bending of the mandrel can compromise the goose-neck bearing or cause the furl to run off and jam. Oversold as convenience sail control system the engineering is complicated and is a poor solution when compared to the simplicity of slab reefing and IMO has no place offshore.



The only half way successful manifestation of in boom reefing I have seen was on an Aerorig where the sails are "set", the boom angle is fixed and the main is always pointing upwind when reefing regardless of the point of sail.

I figured it wouldn't be easy but wanted to know if it can be done as a last resort to tame the main. Even if the huge sail is sitting loosely on the deck it is still better than 50' up in the air. Just a thought..

[Free2Sail]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I'm very sorry that these people died, I can't quite understand that, they were awake and talking and well cared for after the accident, but then?

That's what's confusing to me as well - what did they die of? From the writeup by the surviving crew, it seems they were quite stable when picked up the USCG helicopter. The captain suffered a broken leg with an open fracture, but the bleeding was controlled, and the USCG helo would have a supply of blood to stabilize him. It appears his wife was hit across the back by the mainsheet, no open wounds reported. Neither was seeming hit by the boom, or in the head, though of course they could have hit their heads after being knocked down by the swinging mainsheet. However, at least the captain was reported to be awake and communicating after the injury. So, what was it? Internal bleeding? What a tragedy.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Knotical

I figured it wouldn't be easy but wanted to know if it can be done as a last resort to tame the main. Even if the huge sail is sitting loosely on the deck it is still better than 50' up in the air. Just a thought..

100' up in the air.