Seeking advice about buying this custom twin keel sailboat as a new sailor

[fourlyons]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Another comment: I note that the length to beam ratio is ~2:1, and this is very much out of normal design parameters, where >3:1 is more common practice. I suspect such a design will not sail all that well, especially to windward.

The likely reason for such a departure from orthodoxy is to maximize interior volume while maintaining a short LOA and I don't know if this is a good idea. The added costs of an additional 5 feet in LOA (as in the Cat-27 ilk) are not that great.

Jim

I'm not so sure about that Jim, except for the bilge keels, this boat appears to be closely patterned after a Cape Cod Cat Boat. They have a reputation for pretty good performance for a shallow draft, gaff rigged, center board design, tacking through 100 degrees. If done right, the bilge keels and wishbone rig might improve that. I would add the Nonsuch boats are also very wide for their length and are also good sailers.

[Jim Cate]

I would add the Nonsuch boats are also very wide for their length and are also good sailers.

Well, I had a look and the Nonesuch line has boats from 22 to 45 feet LOA. Their length:beam ratios run from about 2.6 to 3.1:1 which is not far from industry norms. I dunno about the traditional catboats... no data so no comment.

I'm not convinced that the 2:1 ratio would not lead to poor sailing performance.

Jim

[aDemilich]

Jim, I got curious about catboats and ended up watching this entire documentary about them- they're very beautiful and fascinating boats to me! They talk about their performance and racing them starting at 15 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iV-6iRhl9M&t=905s

No idea if the boat this thread is about would share the same characteristics. Either way, I've decided I definitely want something slightly roomier.

This Columbia 26 MKII looks pretty good and is only $3000:

https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/b...213589830.html

Should I be worried about buying something as old as 1970? Also, can anyone recommend a professional surveyor in the greater Seattle area?

[jalmberg]

Boats are very personal things. Buy the boat you fall in love with. If you love it, someone else will love it when you want to sell. The fastest sale I ever made on a boat was a 23’ wooden gaffer that most people on this forum would NEVER buy. It sold, sight unseen, in a month. The guy saw the photos, fell in love, and mailed me a check before he saw it. Mad? Yes. That’s love. People rarely fall in love with Catalina 23s. They are practical, popular boats, but there are always dozens for sale, so yours better be the best of the bunch.

[Sofa King Fishy]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

IMO, for a first time buyer, one with little experience, staying mainstream is a better way to go. There are reasons that boats have evolved as they have, and outliers are suspect. When you have some sea miles and years aboard, that's when risking an odd design becomes more attractive.

In your place, I'd be looking to spend that amount of money on something like a Catalina 27 or a Bristol or a Cape Dory or any of a large range of common production boats available. A known factor, somewhat larger, easier to sell on when you are done with her, and much more capacious for living aboard with felines.

Jim

I Absolutely Agree- something goes awry on a Catalina, there are 200+ owners to ply for information & parts are readily available. Also a sloop is a safer, steadier ride than a Cat-rigged vessel. No deck sweeper to deal with in a blow.

[Visarend]

+1 for a Catalina 27. I personally surveyed the Jaguar 27 that my brother in law bought some years ago, and showed him the ropes in a shakedown cruise from France to Italy (btw, the Jaguar 27 was a Catalina 27 built in UK under licence by a reputable company). It was really a good little ship, cruised at 6 kts and accomodated his family of three, plus their cat. And cruised very well under motor (inboard 6 hp Volvo diesel).

[TrentePieds]

For those concerned about the beam/length ration of catboats. This is William Garden's Family Cat, a beautiful interpretation of the traditional cat boat of the Eastern Seaboard. A lovely, handy little boat to sail, but, obviously, a boat with severely restricted headroom, which is part of the reason it sails so well.

TP

[capn ken]

cal 29

[Idlegreg]

I quite like the look of that boat, although I know nothing of the sailing properties of Cat Boats, I can see why you are attracted to it.

At 61 I have a 33' boat (small inside by modern standards - 24' WL) I can easily live on my boat, but I would struggle to liveaboard that little Cat boat - with or without Cats!.

But :-)

When in my 20s I owned an old 21' gaffer and I lived aboard at times. I happily sailed it up from the UK South Coast to Scotland where I spent 2 long seasons very comfortably. Mind you I would not have lived in it so happily if I was stuck in one place and heading off to a full time job every morning. When cruising I often had a friend with me for 1 or 2 weeks and that was OK if a bit tight - I was generally relieved to get my space back when they left.



So it all depends on you and your tolerance for living in a small space - to some extent you must not let other peoples idea of comfort spoil your personal descision. After all there are many people who think that living on a sailboat for even a day would be hell compared to the luxury hotels they think are needed.

That particular boat looks well laid out for its size, except maybe - if you want friends to visit - you might want an extra bunk rather than the one wide 1/4 berth (depends on the friends I suppose).

For me the actual living space is rarely the issue but nowadays I could not live without the large amount of stuff I drag around - you must honestly asses whether you are the type who can live with few possesions ?

There are real benifits to the small boat - especially if you are inexperienced it can be less stressful to manage in a confined space and the damage you can do if you get things wrong is less.

It will be..

Cheaper to maintain (a cheap bigger boat will likely stretch a small budget).
Cheaper to moor
Less work to maintain - every hour on maintenance is an hour not sailing or sitting in the Sun relaxing.
Easier to get into small anchorages (especially wth the drying out possibilities of the bilge keels).


And a small boat can be a lot of fun to sail on the nice days (not so nice on a long overnight passage when everything is wet and you just wish you had reached your destination). A larger boat can more quickly make bigger steps along a coast which opens up the range for easy solo sailing.

So it really depends on you and where/how you plan to sail. You need advice from someone who understands Cat boats, or a chance of a test sail to see if it is a dog, but high speed is not required in a boat that is pleasant to sail. All cruising boats are painfully slow compared to most forms of transport.

It could be the ticket to the best years of your life.

But if it were me I would get rid of the big ugly hatch and put on an easily removable pram hood with screen at the back!

[Pegu Club]

Originally Posted by aDemilich

Wow, lots of great replies here. Thank you all so much. I think I do need to come to terms with the fact that this boat simply won't have enough space for two cats along with myself. Would a Catalina 27 really offer that much more space though?

The answer is yes, a Catalina 27 would have likely twice the living space, and you would not be hitting your head nearly as much, go aboard a Catalina 27 and check it out, you will be surprised how much larger the interior is.

Fair winds,

[Close Call]

…..years later. Did you buy the little twin keel cat?
Any idea who the manufacturer was? That craigslist link is long dead so I can’t see the boat you all were discussing. But a boat fitting the same description just came up for sale here in Alaska. 20 foot cape cod cat with outboard in well, twin keel and wishbone rig. Looking for more information on her.

Thanks

[Close Call]

Well I confirmed it. Same boat, it made its way to AK on a trailer. Odd duck but very well built.