Shoal Draft or Swing Keel

[Mike Mars]

Hey All,

I am looking at purchasing my first sailboat, and after getting some good advice, have narrowed it down to a few boats in the low-20 foot range, and the biggest difference at this size, or at least the most salient difference considering where I am planning to sail (Barnegat Bay), is the keel.

Barnegat is functionally a giant mud flat, and while it looks very wide, it has a lot of shallow areas. I have looked at two Catalina 22s and a 25, all of which have swing keels, but the advice I have gotten is they cannot be safely sailed with the keel retracted or partially deployed. Thus I would have to choose between sailing with a 5-foot draft or motoring with the keel retracted.

Alternatively, I could have a shoal draft boat with a draft in the low 3ft range (3' 3" for a Hunter 25, 3' even for a Cape Dory). This would give me the ability to sail a wider area of the bay, but without the utility of the swing keel.

So generally I wonder:

1) Is it indeed true that you cannot, or should not, sail with the keel retracted or partially retracted on Catalina 22 or 25?

2) Would you generally prefer a narrower sailing area with a swing keel's utility or a slightly wider sailing area with a fixed shoal-draft keel? This considering I have no plans to intentionally beach the boat.

3) If anyone has experience sailing Barnegat or similar shallow bay areas, I would love to hear your thoughts. I have the option to pay a bit more and put a boat in Raritan Bay or Delaware Bay, so if your experience is "shallow sailing is a frustrating waste of time if you're not in the Bahamas," I do have alternatives.

Thanks,
Mike

[Cheechako]

Key question: Do you intend to trailer it?

You can deploy a swing keel partially. I used to sail a 21 footer with the keel retracted or partially retracted. Of course you have to pay attention, not overburden the boat in more winds with the keel up etc. Everything is doable with the right knowledge.
The other advantage of a swing keel is if you do run aground, you can pull up the keel and carry on.
A further advantage is you can more easily trailer a swing keel boat.

But if you are moored on the water and only launch retrieve maybe once a year, then having some keel/ballast/trunk with a swing inside is nice and usually less tender.

[Mike Mars]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Key question: Do you intend to trailer it?

You can deploy a swing keel partially. I used to sail a 21 footer with the keel retracted or partially retracted. Of course you have to pay attention, not overburden the boat in more winds with the keel up etc. Everything is doable with the right knowledge.
The other advantage of a swing keel is if you do run aground, you can pull up the keel and carry on.
A further advantage is you can more easily trailer a swing keel boat.

But if you are moored on the water and only launch retrieve maybe once a year, then having some keel/ballast/trunk with a swing inside is nice and usually less tender.

I will not be trailering it, I intend to rent a slip. My little car couldn't pull it even if I put it on a trailer.

But being able to sail with the keel partially retracted is important information, I would probably prefer the Catalina because it's a bit simpler, a bit cheaper, and parts are significantly cheaper and more available. So if I can deploy the keel partially in light wind or under a smaller sail area, that would be great.

My biggest fear with the Catalina is that I would be stuck between a 5 foot draft with keel or a fully retracted keel and only motor power available.

[Brioche]

If you are getting a used boat you need to examine the swing keel carefully. A weighted keel puts a lot of stress on its mounting and it is not unusual to find weak spots in the structure, sometimes leading to leaks. On the other hand, I had a quite old swing keel boat that never had a problem, so it varies from boat to boat. Another thing to be careful about is that if you raise the keel part way, you may not be able to lock it in place, and if the boat goes over the keel can swing into the hull and the boat loses a lot of righting moment. Aside from that, swing keels are certainly nice to have in shallow areas and for trailering, and likely enhance the future salability of the boat if you decide to replace it in the future.

[John_Trusty]

Cheechako's comments are in-line with my thinking. I had a swing-keel Hunter 21, and loved it. The mechanism for raising the keel was hydraulic and caused problems on occasion, but the flexibility it gave us was great. We had her in a slip, but trailered behind a small SUV without a problem for vacations. Trailer sailing was too much of a pain as it was an hour in each direction for stepping the mast and removing, so that was an occasional thing, not like owning a motorboat.

Cursed it the person that would say "shallow sailing is a frustrating waste of time if you're not in the Bahamas" -- it is call a centuries old sport called gunkholing and one of the most rewarding pastimes known to man. As Cheechako notes, having a swing keel allows you to make a mistake, then crank up your keel and sail away. If you really screw up, you'll be in two foot of water and can jump out and push her off. This is a marvelous way to spend a summer day!

Swing keels add some complexity (read: one more thing to break) so maintenance and periodic inspection is needed. You will also want to apply anti-foul paint to the keel and keel trunk to avoid growing a condo association of barnacles.

[Kd9truck]

We have sailed an O’DAY 23 pop top with my father and my young kids on Barnegat bay for 15 years, it had a swing keel, my father never put it down.
We did slip Sideways, this is called “leeway” the more wind the more leeway.
We never went out with the wind over 10 knots, with kids under 7 so it was safe.
I had a Benie 285 FIrst, with a wing keel that drew 4 ft, much less leeway, I offer this because there are more than shoal draft or swing keel. There is also a full keel as well but these are usually heavy displacement vessels (strong wind needed to move them fast.

I would rather a wing keel or a modified full keel if I was looking for shallow draft.
My vessel draws 7.5 feet, I don’t feel limited, I do love that my vessel gives no leeway, it helps on long distances and when your close hauled and trying to pinch to make a mark/buoy.


Good luck on the search.

[MartinF]

I sailed a retracting keel 22-footer; often we would anchor in 4 feet of water in the evening, sit on the mud in the night, and leave with the next tide in the morning. A lifting-keel boat is sailable in less water than a fixed- keel, even if the draft is greater, because you can lift the keel and try again; running aground in a fixed-keel boat might get you stuck.

I have looked at Barnegat Bay on Google Maps. It looks very interesting.
M

[MGRodems]

Over the years I have had a swing keel on a McGregor 22, Centerboard on a Irwin 27 and a centerboard on a Morgan 35. Retractable and swing keels are great. The Morgan was 50 years old and the board mechanism still worked. I also have sailed Barnegat Bay, the Chesapeake and the Potomac River.

The swing keel sailboat is a good choice for you. I agree with all of the comments above so I don't have to repeat anything. My comment would be to not worry so much about the mechanism, as long as you test that it is working properly before you buy it. If it is, and it feels right, there is a good chance you will get a lot of use out of it on the Bay and possibly beyond.

- Mike

[wyb2]

Originally Posted by Kd9truck

We have sailed an O’DAY 23 pop top with my father and my young kids on Barnegat bay for 15 years, it had a swing keel, my father never put it down.
…

I think the O’days were keel/centerboards. So the swing centerboard isn’t heavily ballasted and the stability will be about the same with it up or down. A swing keel carries all of the ballast, so the boats stability will change with it up vs down.

That being said, for the OP, I think most swing keel boats are still nominally stable with the keel up. I wouldn’t try sailing close hauled in 20 knts without getting a good feel for the boat first, but would you want to do that in 4 ft of water anyway?

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Mike Mars

I will not be trailering it, I intend to rent a slip. My little car couldn't pull it even if I put it on a trailer.



But being able to sail with the keel partially retracted is important information, I would probably prefer the Catalina because it's a bit simpler, a bit cheaper, and parts are significantly cheaper and more available. So if I can deploy the keel partially in light wind or under a smaller sail area, that would be great.



My biggest fear with the Catalina is that I would be stuck between a 5 foot draft with keel or a fully retracted keel and only motor power available.

I grew up with my family sailing a Catalina 22. It’s not a fast boat but a nice picket cruiser
Yes you can sail with swing keel partially deployed. It will be tippier than with it all the way down.
A dedicated fixed keel shoal draft boat likely has more lbs of ballast to make up for shallow draft. A C22 likely has its ballast/stability calculated on the fully lowered swing keel

Barnegat bay is fun for dinghies and shallow draft. I had a blast racing E scows on the bay many years ago

Nice thing about C22 is the keel retracts if you hit bottom

[Kd9truck]

Originally Posted by wyb2

I think the O’days were keel/centerboards. So the swing centerboard isn’t heavily ballasted and the stability will be about the same with it up or down. A swing keel carries all of the ballast, so the boats stability will change with it up vs down.

That being said, for the OP, I think most swing keel boats are still nominally stable with the keel up. I wouldn’t try sailing close hauled in 20 knts without getting a good feel for the boat first, but would you want to do that in 4 ft of water anyway?

Respectfully,
The vessel I was speaking about is in the link below, the keel had weight 1,200 lbs and it was a “swing” keel, you cranked it up and down with a manual gear and the cable was “parted” several times so that the gearing was not difficult for the week of strength.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/oday-23-1-lift-top.

Cheers

[boatman61]

For shallow water/gunk holing I would not recommend a wing keel, if you run aground it's much harder to get off.
First downside is you cannot heel the boat to reduce draft and kedge off.. the wings get in the way.
Swing or centreboard is your best bet..

[kayakerChuck]

We sail thin water on Lk St Clair. Our O'Day 22, with its stub keel and centerboard, sails nicely. We can float in 18" of water, which opens up a bunch of area to us. She's now for sale.

We upgraded to a 30' O'Day, also with a stub keel/centerboard.

[JimsCAL]

I sailed an ODay 22 on Barnegat Bay with a fixed shoal keel back in the 1970s. I thought it was the ideal boat for that area as I was not restricted to the channels. Not a fan of swing keel boats, but a keel/centerboard would be a great option.

[wyb2]

Originally Posted by Kd9truck

Respectfully,
The vessel I was speaking about is in the link below, the keel had weight 1,200 lbs and it was a “swing” keel, you cranked it up and down with a manual gear and the cable was “parted” several times so that the gearing was not difficult for the week of strength.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/oday-23-1-lift-top.

Cheers

This is super interesting, maybe they had two versions? I was researching the 22’s and 23’s before I bought my boat. Everything I found said keel/CB (like the sailboatdata link you gave) or stub/CB.

Here’s a copy of an old O’day document (not clear from when) that lists the keel as 1200 lbs and the CB as 50 lbs.

http://www.iheartodays.com/files/mod...049w_1460h.jpg

A 1200 lb swing keel would be a beast in a small boat. I would love to see the cable mechanism.