Shot Across The Bow

[Vitis01]

After reading Storm Tactics: Cape Horn Tested by Larry Pardey and Lin Pardey they've convinced me that any boat can heave-to with the right gear and experience. I also think that if the sea state is not dangerously confused, it is usually the better choice than running. While all strategies should be considered and applied as appropriate to the weather conditions and the boat and crew's abilities, "The Slick" (Von Karman Vortex Sheet) is a real and active effect and I don't view heaving-to as a passive strategy.

Having said all that, I have to disclose that I am a VERY green sailor on SF Bay and all those thoughts above are theoretical and the product of reading Kretchmer, Pardys and Slocum. I've only ever heaved-to so I could eat my sandwich.

[thomm225]

Just don't get confused though on the Pardey's "small" boats.

Their 24' Taleisin displaced about 17,000 lbs.

[NormanMartin]

For all the worrying about storms and heaving too I found the calms are pretty serious and way more common. Good light air sails are essential.

After many any thousands of miles I've had more trouble not being able to get through the light air than heavy.

Oh... never owned or delivered a Pearson but I admire them greatly.

[fourlyons]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Just don't get confused though on the Pardey's "small" boats.



Their 24' Taleisin displaced about 17,000 lbs.

For the record, Taleisin is 29' 6" on deck. Still a fairly heavy boat.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Vitis01

After reading Storm Tactics: Cape Horn Tested by Larry Pardey and Lin Pardey they've convinced me that any boat can heave-to with the right gear and experience. I also think that if the sea state is not dangerously confused, it is usually the better choice than running. While all strategies should be considered and applied as appropriate to the weather conditions and the boat and crew's abilities, "The Slick" (Von Karman Vortex Sheet) is a real and active effect and I don't view heaving-to as a passive strategy.

Having said all that, I have to disclose that I am a VERY green sailor on SF Bay and all those thoughts above are theoretical and the product of reading Kretchmer, Pardys and Slocum. I've only ever heaved-to so I could eat my sandwich.

Thread drift, but I would suggest reading up on Jordan Series Drogues to round out, and bring up to date, your theoretical knowledge. Among those of us who actually sail in really gnarly waters, heaving-to has not been the favored storm tactic for a couple of decades already. Like spreading oil on the water, a favored tactic in the 18th and 19th centuries, heaving-to in a storm has some validity, but like spreading oil on the water, heaving-to in a storm has been superseded by better tactics, especially for modern lighter boats.

Heaving-to is a really useful tactic for a lot of other cases, including riding out a less than survival storm, or taking a break from fighting such a storm, or repairing something on deck in a seaway, but it's not something I would personally do in survival conditions with big breaking waves. Being hove-to will not stop you from being rolled by a big breaking wave; a JSD will.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by fourlyons

For the record, Taleisin is 29' 6" on deck. Still a fairly heavy boat.

Fairly heavy? !7,000 lbs. for a boat under 30'?

That's straight up heavy displacement.

Most 30' Bluewater boats are at about 10,000 lbs

[fourlyons]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thread drift, but I would suggest reading up on Jordan Series Drogues to round out, and bring up to date, your theoretical knowledge. Among those of us who actually sail in really gnarly waters, heaving-to has not been the favored storm tactic for a couple of decades already. Like spreading oil on the water, a favored tactic in the 18th and 19th centuries, heaving-to in a storm has some validity, but like spreading oil on the water, heaving-to in a storm has been superseded by better tactics, especially for modern lighter boats.

Heaving-to is a really useful tactic for a lot of other cases, including riding out a less than survival storm, or taking a break from fighting such a storm, or repairing something on deck in a seaway, but it's not something I would personally do in survival conditions with big breaking waves. Being hove-to will not stop you from being rolled by a big breaking wave; a JSD will.

Hey Dockhead, all good points. But to be fair, even the Pardeys didn't suggest heaving to in survival conditions. For those conditions they advocated parachute anchors; which they preferred if one doesn't have the room to run slowly down wind with a drogue. I don't have experience with the JSD, but some accounts here on the forum I have read report 3-4 knots of boat speed.

[fourlyons]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Fairly heavy? !7,000 lbs. for a boat under 30'?

That's straight up heavy displacement.

Most 30' Bluewater boats are at about 10,000 lbs

Yep, but not nearly as heavy as a 24' boat that weighs 17000#.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by fourlyons

Yep, but not nearly as heavy as a 24' boat that weighs 17000#.

A 30’ 10,000lb boat is moderate displacement. A 24’ boat at 17,000lb gives a D/L ratio twice that of heavy displacement

Sounds heavy

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

A 30’ 10,000lb boat is moderate displacement. A 24’ boat at 17,000lb gives a D/L ratio twice that of heavy displacement

Sounds heavy

It's got a lot of lead in the keel. Stiffer than hell.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Vitis01

After reading Storm Tactics: Cape Horn Tested by Larry Pardey and Lin Pardey they've convinced me that any boat can heave-to with the right gear and experience. I also think that if the sea state is not dangerously confused, it is usually the better choice than running. While all strategies should be considered and applied as appropriate to the weather conditions and the boat and crew's abilities, "The Slick" (Von Karman Vortex Sheet) is a real and active effect and I don't view heaving-to as a passive strategy.

Having said all that, I have to disclose that I am a VERY green sailor on SF Bay and all those thoughts above are theoretical and the product of reading Kretchmer, Pardys and Slocum. I've only ever heaved-to so I could eat my sandwich.

don't take Pardeys opinion, ( find some suitable nasty weather ) try it in a modern, relatively light weight , high coach bodied, fin keel sloop, you know like the millions around the world . Come back here after a few attempts and explain how you got on

Hint , you will not be happy

active storm techniques far better suit modern hydrodynamically efficient boats , running towing warps is often enough pressure to hold the stern up, The rudder is well able to handle it and the protection from broaching is good, the apparent wind speed is reduced . In a F11 we even managed to get the AP on for a while !!

alternatively " jogging" using your reliable engine is a good trawlers man tactic , but its wet and boisterous and tiring

heaving too. tends to expose a modern fin keel , to too much beam seas, she'll sail of the coachroof windage alone , In my experience its too unstable a point of sail on a modern yacht , too little boat in the water and the rudder is not effective because you're too slow.

With a lot of fiddling about you can sort of make it stable , she'll either fall away or come up and tack through , both of which are exactly what you don't want to happen

They also make too much way , rendering an " so-called " slick , useless.

in my experience any seas and wind you have hove-to, you can sail through, heaving to is good for a cup of coffee break( or eating a sandwich ) not a survival tactic

Oh and one last thing , if a big wave breaks , no f-ing "slick" will save you , best be moving and steering and try and get the f away from it or go down trying !!, we dodged two that would have wiped us off the planet

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by Lady Captin

Still learning to navigate the sight and how to find things . Yes could not agree more , the Pearson 323 seems to be a good boat at a very fair price . High on our list at this point for sure as a result . Not a ton for sale , they apparently made like 385 of them according to sailboat data.com . So worth dreaming of , lol .

385 is not a bad production run for a boat over 30'

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

don't take Pardeys opinion, ( find some suitable nasty weather ) try it in a modern, relatively light weight , high coach bodied, fin keel sloop, you know like the millions around the world . Come back here after a few attempts and explain how you got on

Hint , you will not be happy

active storm techniques far better suit modern hydrodynamically efficient boats , running towing warps is often enough pressure to hold the stern up, The rudder is well able to handle it and the protection from broaching is good, the apparent wind speed is reduced . In a F11 we even managed to get the AP on for a while !!

alternatively " jogging" using your reliable engine is a good trawlers man tactic , but its wet and boisterous and tiring

heaving too. tends to expose a modern fin keel , to too much beam seas, she'll sail of the coachroof windage alone , In my experience its too unstable a point of sail on a modern yacht , too little boat in the water and the rudder is not effective because you're too slow.

With a lot of fiddling about you can sort of make it stable , she'll either fall away or come up and tack through , both of which are exactly what you don't want to happen

They also make too much way , rendering an " so-called " slick , useless.

in my experience any seas and wind you have hove-to, you can sail through, heaving to is good for a cup of coffee break( or eating a sandwich ) not a survival tactic

Oh and one last thing , if a big wave breaks , no f-ing "slick" will save you , best be moving and steering and try and get the f away from it or go down trying !!, we dodged two that would have wiped us off the planet

This is all exactly correct, and even a P365, which is by modern standards is a heavy boat with a long keel, behaves more like this than Taleisin.


A breaking big wave is the nightmare scenario -- one of those slammed by 25 tonne boat flat in the North Sea some years ago, and it was a miracle nothing was broken (thank you, Bill Dixon).


If one of those catches you when you're hove to, you will be rolled, and you are screwed.


You want to dodge it if you can -- trailing a JSD you have a chance if you're steering (rather than hiding below, which is another possibility whilst using a JSK). If you can't dodge it, you'd prefer to take it whilst moving away from it, with the stern held up so that you don't broach. A JSD provides that.


I don't know anyone in the last 20 years who carries a parachute sea anchor. Bows-to is inherently unstable and hard to make work, and being hit by a wave whilst being held almost rigidly in place increases the impact force. It's true you don't drift as much with a para anchor, but you want searoom in any case, if you get caught in a bad storm. You only need 100 miles of searoom to stay off a lee shore for 24 hours even at 4 knots, and if you have less than 100 miles, surely you have plenthy of time to get into a snug harbour before the storm hits. I have never felt the need for a para anchor, and don't know anyone who carries one anymore.

[wgerstmyer]

Everett Pearson formed Tillotson Pearson in ‘66. Their Freedom sailboats made Mate Ferrenc’s Worlds Best Sailboats list. In that book you can read how his fiberglass research and building practices are second to none. For instance, his glass hulls are designed to withstand flexing on their own, before adding in the additional structure of the bulkheads. We have an ‘88 F36 and it practically looks brand new. So I would feel secure in a Pearson boat.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Fairly heavy? !7,000 lbs. for a boat under 30'?

That's straight up heavy displacement.

Most 30' Bluewater boats are at about 10,000 lbs

Is that true? The Catalina 30 weighs 10k lbs, and never felt to me like a heavy displacement or blue water boat. Granted half of that is lead, but I’ll think most blue water boats have lead not steel keels, and thus the hull weight of a real blue water must be higher.