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Old 18-11-2016, 04:30   #61
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Re: Steel boat – heaven or hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Google " ultrasonic thickness gauge"
I use them to inspect aircraft steel tubing, to determine amount of internal corrosion if any. A good one can be had for about $300 and will tell you to the .001 of an inch the thickness of the metal by simply placing the transducer to the metal.

I think if I had a steel boat, I'd have one to check the bottom when I was doing a bottom job, if checked every now and again, you will know when and if your losing metal to corrosion probably in time to do something to stop it.


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Do you have any suggestions on a reliable brand of ultrasonic gauge and could you please comment on its use. can you easily differentiate between sound steel and rust?
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Old 18-11-2016, 04:36   #62
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Re: Steel boat – heaven or hell?

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, wizz.
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Old 18-11-2016, 05:19   #63
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Re: Steel boat – heaven or hell?

When you are surveying a steel boat or getting a surveyor to do it for you, you should concentrate more on the areas where problems are likely to occur.
The large areas of plating will give an average idea of any problems, but the rust will usually happen from the inside out. Therefore firstly look at the inside and the stringers when water may collect. Also look under the engine. although there may well be water/oil in the bilge the oil will be on the top and underneath will be the water where hidden rusting can occur.
Look at areas where there are changes in section, like chines which can be vulnerable from impact damage (hidden splits). On Dutch yachts with dump toilet outlets look around the outlets for corrosion.
Best of luck.
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Old 18-11-2016, 05:46   #64
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Re: Steel boat – heaven or hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Google " ultrasonic thickness gauge"
I use them to inspect aircraft steel tubing, to determine amount of internal corrosion if any. A good one can be had for about $300 and will tell you to the .001 of an inch the thickness of the metal by simply placing the transducer to the metal.

I think if I had a steel boat, I'd have one to check the bottom when I was doing a bottom job, if checked every now and again, you will know when and if your losing metal to corrosion probably in time to do something to stop it.


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I am currently considering this type of gauge (see attached pdf file)
MW
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Ultrasonic Thickness Gauge DUT15 0.01mm.pdf (164.6 KB, 79 views)
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Old 15-02-2017, 20:04   #65
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Re: Why Steel for the Hull & Frameless Construction Method



This is precisely the comment I was hoping to find, thank you.

I have recently found a 43' steel yacht in French Polynesia. It is apparently a Robert Perry design built by Challenger Yachts, though I have been unable to find records of the design. Only 20 were built, by the looks of it.
I very much like what I see, but for one thing which gives me pause. Based on the photos, the yacht does not appear to have a frame above the waterline(though I could very well be mistaken). I am intrigued by your post because it seems to suggest that a frame may not be strictly necessary. That, or it is only necessary in strategic locations. I have not yet been able to view the boat myself, though a recent survey found it in good condition. The hull thickness is 6mm, though that goes up to 8mm in the keel with a 20mm sole.
Take a look at the boat yourself here:
1987 OXYGENE 43 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 15-02-2017, 21:15   #66
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Re: Why Steel for the Hull & Frameless Construction Method

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterman View Post
This is precisely the comment I was hoping to find, thank you.

I have recently found a 43' steel yacht in French Polynesia. It is apparently a Robert Perry design built by Challenger Yachts, though I have been unable to find records of the design. Only 20 were built, by the looks of it.
I very much like what I see, but for one thing which gives me pause. ....
1987 OXYGENE 43 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
I'd say you have a good designer there, and it appears as though the yard itself had a good reputation.
Quote:
Founded by Howard D. Stern (1929-2005). Challenger Yachts, located at Wilmington CA. It was known for its high standards of construction and was said to be the first builder in the industry to offer an unconditional hull guarantee.


Probably be best to ask Perry about this design and his thoughts on the construction method.

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Old 15-02-2017, 21:38   #67
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Re: Steel boat – heaven or hell?

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Originally Posted by TurninTurtle View Post
US Navy has been using steel boats (ships) for a long time... they can last a long time as evidenced by USS Enterprise operating from appx 1960 to appx 2010 and now its a museum.

Even the Arizona which has been sunk since Dec 7 1941 is mostly intact. Maybe 50 years from now they'll have to support the memorial with pilings driven in beside the hull.
Let's remember two things:

#1. I was in the Navy on a 30-year-old ship, but we were constantly scraping and painting! You can't scrape under water, so that means you have to haul it out regularly for inspections.

#2. The Arizona is at the bottom of the harbor! Supposedly, the water in Pearl Harbor is not oxygen rich, so rust forms slowly. But it's still at the bottom...

Steel has the advantage of strength. Lots of garbage floating around the oceans these days. But even steel ships can be sunk if they hit the debris hard enough or in the right place.
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Old 15-02-2017, 23:24   #68
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Re: Steel boat – heaven or hell?

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Originally Posted by wizz0041 View Post
I am currently considering this type of gauge (see attached pdf file)
MW
Looks OK if you have bare metal, a meter which can read through paint fortunately costs a lot more.
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Old 16-02-2017, 06:32   #69
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Re: Steel boat – heaven or hell?

The forward bilges are notorious for metal corrosion. The Vee area especially prone due to the anchor chains. At 30 year old metal boat may have significant thinning of the plates in certain areas and not others. Also check the welds to see if any have been rewelded.While metal is fairly forgiving, it can hardened if subject to repeated stresses. That is mostly due to bad designs. The weld joint, not the weld per se, will give indications of undue stress.
Steel expands and contracts with the climate. Thus inspect all structural members for cracks or deformities. Good news is that steel can significantly deform before the integrity of the boat is compromised.

the great news is they are Faraday cages, grounded, and normally happy campers. Stray currents can eat up the hulls in months, but that is simple to solve. Always keep painting, inside and out. And weld rather than bolt on accessories if possible.
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Old 16-02-2017, 07:07   #70
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Re: Steel boat – heaven or hell?

The photo of the boat in Bora Bora seems to show a lapped plating seam. That adds a lot of rigidity to the plating and may be why there are few (any?) ribs showing on the inside. It is not a common way of plating, but I have seen it once before and (like most things) if it is done correctly is probably a fine method. I didnt notice if the yard that built it is still available to talk to, but that and the designer are the people you should be asking. A side note here. Most metal thickness gauges require you to remove paint down to shiny metal for the test. If you are doing random testing, you can take a perfectly good paint system and put dozens of future problem spots into it, unless you do as good or better repair job to the paint than original. If you have ground off the flame sprayed zink, or aluminum you cant easily repair that. If you are considering flying a surveyor in to look at it, I can recommend a very good one that is also a native French speaker. Best of Luck, _____Grant.
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Old 16-02-2017, 07:21   #71
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Re: Why Steel for the Hull & Frameless Construction Method

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterman View Post
This is precisely the comment I was hoping to find, thank you.

I have recently found a 43' steel yacht in French Polynesia. It is apparently a Robert Perry design built by Challenger Yachts ... [/url]
It is almost certainly not a Perry design. The good news is that he probably won't charge you to confirm the design's provenance.
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Old 16-02-2017, 07:25   #72
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Re: Why Steel for the Hull & Frameless Construction Method

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterman View Post
This is precisely the comment I was hoping to find, thank you.

I have recently found a 43' steel yacht in French Polynesia. It is apparently a Robert Perry design built by Challenger Yachts, though I have been unable to find records of the design. Only 20 were built, by the looks of it.
I very much like what I see, but for one thing which gives me pause. Based on the photos, the yacht does not appear to have a frame above the waterline(though I could very well be mistaken). I am intrigued by your post because it seems to suggest that a frame may not be strictly necessary. That, or it is only necessary in strategic locations. I have not yet been able to view the boat myself, though a recent survey found it in good condition. The hull thickness is 6mm, though that goes up to 8mm in the keel with a 20mm sole.
Take a look at the boat yourself here:
1987 OXYGENE 43 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

That link to the boat in Bora Bora?
This is what it says in the description today:
"The Oxygene 43 is a steel huylled boat designed by Joubert Nivelt..."

I don't see anything there that mentions Robert Perry or Challenger.

Perhaps you have it confused with another boat/link?

I recall seeing an Oxygene 43 listed in the Caribbean for about $29K asking price, back in 2015. Very similar condition, though it was not as "clean" in the photos.
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Old 17-02-2017, 01:41   #73
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Re: Steel boat – heaven or hell?

If you dock by feel or want to ram other boats, steel is a good option but for the same weight, you can build a massively strong 1.0-1.5" fiberglass hull that will bounce off things with nothing more than a scrape also.


As far as the ease of adding or modifying deck fittings, fiberglass is just as easy if not easier. If you can access from below deck, coring isn't even a challenge. The challenge with fiberglass is if you want a quality finish it takes some skill. With welding, most people just accept that it won't be perfectly faired. If you want to add a perfectly faired steel fitting, it also takes a lot of skill and time.


I have a couple friends with steel boats. While they are in no danger of sinking, it's a constant battle to keep the rust stains at bay.
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Old 17-02-2017, 07:20   #74
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Re: Steel boat – heaven or hell?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
If you dock by feel or want to ram other boats, steel is a good option but for the same weight, you can build a massively strong 1.0-1.5" fiberglass hull that will bounce off things with nothing more than a scrape also.


As far as the ease of adding or modifying deck fittings, fiberglass is just as easy if not easier. If you can access from below deck, coring isn't even a challenge. The challenge with fiberglass is if you want a quality finish it takes some skill. With welding, most people just accept that it won't be perfectly faired. If you want to add a perfectly faired steel fitting, it also takes a lot of skill and time.


I have a couple friends with steel boats. While they are in no danger of sinking, it's a constant battle to keep the rust stains at bay.
Nearly all MegaYachts are built of steel, a few of aluminum. I have run a number of them, they are usually fared with epoxy. none of them had a constant battle with rust stains. I have also run a number of steel tugs and ships, not fared. Because they were work boats we would often nick the paint on the deck or hull. About once a month one of the deckhands would take care of these nicks with a quick wipe with ospho then prime and paint. It wasn't a big job unless you neglected it for a number of months.

M
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Old 17-02-2017, 07:32   #75
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Re: Steel boat – heaven or hell?

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Originally Posted by captmikem View Post
Nearly all MegaYachts are built of steel, a few of aluminum. I have run a number of them, they are usually fared with epoxy. none of them had a constant battle with rust stains. I have also run a number of steel tugs and ships, not fared. Because they were work boats we would often nick the paint on the deck or hull. About once a month one of the deckhands would take care of these nicks with a quick wipe with ospho then prime and paint. It wasn't a big job unless you neglected it for a number of months.

M
At larger sizes, metal gains structural advantages. At smaller size boats, the thickness is driven by puncture resistance resulting in a heavy boat compared to a fiberglass boat of similar strength (tugs are happy to be heavy due to their use). As you get larger, you reach a point where thickness is driven by structural strength needs and steel will be lighter than comparable fiberglass. Also, it reaches a point where construction in steel is simpler as casting a 300' fiberglass hull without cold joints is a big challenge (you can do proper cold joints but it adds a layer of complication).

Sure you can fair a metal boat real nice but it blows the "it's easy to weld a cleat to the deck" idea out of the water. If you want a nice high quality finish, it's at least as much effort as doing similar with fiberglass.

Once a month having to do some paint work to keep rust at bay sure sounds like a constant battle and is consistent with what my friends do. On the other hand with fiberglass...once or twice a year wax and really nothing more to it. If you leave a scratch for a year or two, it doesn't grow.
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