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bob kingsland · 05-01-2009, 15:33

Hud and Midlandone, I chose to build my own vessel of cor-10 for the same reasons Stillbuilding has mentioned... namely that if (when) I whack a piling or otherwise abrade the hull, I figure it gives me a little more time to get a coating on it... in theory I felt that the rust would localize at the abrasion and stop, and not bleed up under the finish from the abraded spot. It might buy me a day or two, rather than a matter of hours, before I had to worry about getting paint on it. I had used a fair amount of cor-10 in metal sculpture prior to building the boat, and was thus familiar with it, and felt that for the miniscule increase in cost (in terms of the total) it would be worth it. I also like it's higher tensile strength. I'd do it again... I see no reasons not to use it, it's stronger, and it might help with corrosion, so why not?

Of course, there are many other components in a good metal boat... sandblasting the interior, proper epoxy, and using stainless at wear points on deck, etc., etc. But this is one you can easily do, so why not?

Best, Bob S/V Restless

Shack · 05-01-2009, 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boracay

I have built two boats and I am currently fitting out a 44' Steel Roberts Offshore.

This is a big round bilge 43' steel boat that you are asking about ......it is a mammoth project......Take a walk round your local boat yards and marinas. Find what 43' boats are selling for. Then answer Carmen's question.

Boracay,
Mi querida Carmen. Yo soy no amigo, soy grave planicidor.

I am actually researching 50 footers, maybe bigger. Have the build plans from Brewer, Roberts, and Dix. I have walked the yard and made some friends who built a Roberts 65 from scratch. They are now sailing the Caribbean and running a charter. I'm not sure that I want to follow their "exact" path, but they did blaze a real good trail for me to at least pattern my moves.

-->My question, rather, has more to do with accurately weighing the tradeoffs. Is it econmical to exchanging build time for sail time in order to improve quality? From what I can best determine, the quality gains may not warrant the extra build time.

jdoe71 · 05-01-2009, 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by SabreKai

Fiberglas is easy to work, and I've done a fair bit of it, but I'd like to see one slide down the road at 60mph. Or bounce off a reef for a while. Steel is the best of all worlds from my point of view.

Sabre

I thought everybody in the world had heard the story of the Corbin 39 that bounced down the highway without incident. And there are recent examples of GRP boats going onto reefs and coming off largely intact (Flying Pig pops into mind). Just depends on how tough you want to build them, which equates to how much money do you want to spend? Largely, I'd agree though, GRP production boats won't take the beating steel will, but I've spent half a century watching salt turn cars into rust piles despite the best efforts of the builders. One man's nightmare is another man's dream.

bob kingsland · 05-01-2009, 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shack

Boracay,
Mi querida Carmen. Yo soy no amigo, soy grave planicidor.

I am actually researching 50 footers, maybe bigger. Have the build plans from Brewer, Roberts, and Dix. I have walked the yard and made some friends who built a Roberts 65 from scratch. They are now sailing the Caribbean and running a charter. I'm not sure that I want to follow their "exact" path, but they did blaze a real good trail for me to at least pattern my moves.

-->My question, rather, has more to do with accurately weighing the tradeoffs. Is it econmical to exchanging build time for sail time in order to improve quality? From what I can best determine, the quality gains may not warrant the extra build time.

I think only you can answer that one. If you're happy with yard quality and can afford it, then by all means find a good yard for the metal work and you do the rest. It will be faster, but remember that a bare steel hull is still a very long way from a finished boat.

I think I mentioned on another thread a friend who had a 56' custom aluminum hull professionally built...by a well known yard. He can afford the best, was unhappy with the results, and yanked the hull out of there as soon as it was moveable and has proceeded to redo most of the metalwork. I saw the boat recently and it does look significantly better than it did, but it's now taken him 4 years plus to get there, he's probably only 60% done with the whole project, (with cost no object), and he's had professional help of at least 50 hours a week all along the way, not including the time the hull was being built at the yard.

Only you can determine the level of quality you want, whether you pay for it in time or money.

There's nothing quite like the satisfaction of pulling off a big project like this, no matter how long it takes. But if you'd rather be sailing, you should probably have other people do as much of it as you can afford. Life changes a lot along the way.

Best, Bob S/V Restless

Shack · 05-01-2009, 18:45

Bob,
Thanks, much. The more folks I socialize this concept with the more defined my plan is becoming. I'm 2 years into a 5 year plan before I plan to start laying the keel. I may very well be writing to you again.

Thanks, again.

sparty · 05-01-2009, 19:07

How about using Monel? I saw a boat listed for sale last year, on ebay I think, with a hull made of Monel. Supposedly, it is very rust resistant. If I recall correctly it was supposedly one of two known to the seller made of that material.

MidLandOne · 05-01-2009, 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob kingsland

...I think I mentioned on another thread a friend who had a 56' custom aluminum hull professionally built...by a well known yard. He can afford the best, was unhappy with the results, and yanked the hull out of there as soon as it was moveable and has proceeded to redo most of the metalwork...

A generalisation but USA yards that build metal boats (and so generally their bread and butter is commercial vessels) build very roughly finished boats. They suffer because they have operated in a protected market (Jones Act) for so long. I have had yards in other countries tell me that the Jones Act is their biggest friend in that while they have not been able to build commercial vessels for the USA because of it, it has meant the USA generally cannot compete on quality and price on the international market. That has been my experience also when internationally tendering metal boat builds.

For a client who had previously had all his boats built in the USA we got two in aluminium built for him outside of the USA - until he saw those he hadn't realised the inferior finish quality he had suffered before. Since then he has had another built in the USA but was VERY careful as to the yard that was given the build and he then got a nice result (it was an internationally respected builder of superyachts).

There are poor yards in other countries too of course so one has to be careful in the selection of a builder and to do that one must have the background to make an informed selection. That is to know how high quality metal boats should be built and finished, that from a professional point of view not from the nattering of amateurs on forums where much (but not all) of what is said is VERY ill informed. With a good yard the finished product will exceed that built by almost any amateur by a country mile and be finished far more quickly - but at a big cost of course for the labour.

stillbuilding · 05-01-2009, 20:14

I agree wholeheartedly with Midlandone - a professional builder will do a far better job than an amateur which will be reflected in the value of the finished product. Resale value for a finely finished steel yacht will be much greater than a poorly done product. Even a talented amateur (and there are many) still miss out on many of the details which a professional will automatically cover.

Shack · 06-01-2009, 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidLandOne

... USA yards build very roughly finished boats. They suffer because they have operated in a protected market

For a client who had previously had all his boats built in the USA ... hehad another built in the USA but was VERY careful as to the yard that was given the build and he then got a nice result. With a good yard the finished product will exceed that built by almost any amateur ... - but at a big cost of course for the labour.

MidLandOne,
Good point.

I think I saw some other text in this thread about the effects of the Jones Act and I was unaware of this factor. Not all yards are created equal, and I'd like to hear from anyone who can catagorize builders by their quality. As they say, "word of mouth is the best advertising."

I'm going to shift some priorities with respect to the selection of a yard and lessen the importance of geography in favor of the yard's reputation.

**GordMay** · 06-01-2009, 03:40

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**Boracay** · 06-01-2009, 13:44

Babelfish gave me : "My dear Carmen. I am nonfriend, I am serious planicidor." and Google just will not tell me what a "plancidor" is.

My I suggest considering one of the secondhand Oceanic 43s on the market (Google again). They looked to list from $US75k to $US165k and while they may need a little work it would be way less than building from scratch.

The fibreglass versions are possibly very substantial hand layups and should be similar in strength to the ones built in steel.

And if my memory serves me well Carmen's answer was "Why?"

Shack · 06-01-2009, 19:11

Borcay,
Cuando yo escrubendo "planicido", it means "planner."

Funny that you mention that, I am currently living aboard one of those second hand Pan Oceanic 43's!! Its a floating tank as far as the lay up goes. I did some reading on Mr. Brewer's stuff ahead of time and its fun to see his stuff come together on in one boat design.

Steel seems to have have some attractive properties, though.

stillbuilding · 06-01-2009, 20:15

Had a beautifully done custom solid layup GRP in an earlier life. Tracked it for 10 years after I reluctantly sold it - went up on a reef in Indonesia, scrubbed a hole and sank overnight. Pity, good boat.

Brent Swain · 09-01-2009, 16:50

I have built three dozen steel boats for owners who wanted to build their own, but needed a bit of help and experience. They provide the site, materials , tools , meals, wages and accomodation and I work with them to get the bare shell together ,and stop by from time to time to jump start them on the detail when they get bogged down. It is a compromise between the yard where you don't get your hands dirty, very expensive , or doing everything yourself. It may be a good alternative for other building materials as well. Many hire woodworkers to give them a hand finishing the interior, on the same basis. Woodworking students can do that sometimes too. A friend had students do his interior. The instructor , a perfectionist, made them do some of the items three times over to get them perfect. It cost him less than going out and buying the materials himself.
It takes me under 100 hours to tack together the hull, decks, cabin, cockpit, keel, rudder and skeg on a 36 footer, far less if the owner can do his own cutting and some welding. The local welding school is a good source of affordable labour for the full welding process. Some have hired students to do the cutting after I have marked everything out for them. Students can also put the stringers and bulwark caps on and the deck beams on the deck panels .This gives them some job experience and a reference when applying for their first full time job, and the hours needed for their next welding ticket.
Brent