Steel Boats and Welding

[haidan]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Ok, hmmmm...let me revise

10k for base steel
2k for stainless trim (cut 50%)
2.5k for paint and sprayfoam (cut 50%)
1.5k for engine (used)
100 for interior (less labour? stove?, pipeberths?)
2k cheapo mast, rigging etc

18,100 - gross cost for boat
21,720- add in 20% buffer

plus labour....ok how reasonable is that?

I have a sudden urge to weld something...

(ps: haidan thanks for the welding details. its a good record on this site for others)

I wouldn't skimp on the paint and foam those are important to be top of the line, they protect the boat and keep it dry and warm, foam was 1600 and paint was 2400 if I can remember.
I built my interior from 7 sheets of plywood that I bought and the rest all salvaged. But you can go sailing without much of an interior. I built my wood stove from scrapyard stainless pipe. It all adds up and there's so many hidden costs but all in all not bad for a really strong go anywhere boat.

[haidan]

Originally Posted by Stillraining

Info is Right on AFAIC

Except I find tig to be the best and the easiest for SS or Aluminum...Your 500.00 mig machines will not do it...more like a 6K machine needed.

TIG is really nice and once you figure it out pretty easy it just needs gas and the machines are expensive. but great for fiddly little things. I found it kinda funny that that said TIG is mostly for professionals (what ever that means)

[Brent Swain]

Dragging a stick makes getting the arc started much easier. If the flux is broken back and metal is sticking out , it will be sticky. If you drag it on a piece of grounded steel, until the metal is well back inside the flux, starting is far easier. You can hear the difference in the sound when that happens.

[SaltyMonkey]

Thanks Brent!

That's one thing I also noticed about the MOM job. Took forever. Lots of little twiddle bits. 10 days though??? I was thinking maybe 1-2 months! Begs the question why a builder/business isn't churning these out on a regular basis.

(Like my idea of renting a warehouse space, having a party, grabbing a bunch of artists in Oakland, and building a boat overnight.)

[SaltyMonkey]

Ok no skimping on paint and foam

10k for base steel
2k for stainless trim (cut 50%)
5k for paint and spray foam
1.5k for engine (used)
100 for interior (less labour? stove?, pipeberths?)
2k cheapo mast, rigging etc

20,600 - gross cost for boat
24,720- add in 20% buffer

Anyone want to take a crack at labour cost per hour? Think it all can be done for under 50k?

[Stillraining]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

(Like my idea of renting a warehouse space, having a party, grabbing a bunch of artists in Oakland, and building a boat overnight.)

I DO!...Can I be incharge of hard surfacing?...

Thats putting pretty shiney swerly designs, lines and dot all over..in high wear areas...like keel and bow..

[SaltyMonkey]

I'm going to weld a giant rabbit for a Radar post, and make a carrot for a bowsprit

[Yachts66]

I realize I'm jumping in here late, c'est la vi. Brent's the man when it comes to building steel boats on the cheap. He's also got a pretty good book on the process he'll be happy to sell you. I made the mistake of loaning my first copy out, so I had to buy a second one from him, but he didn't seem to mind at all. Imagine that?

Ok, first, always remember steel boats rust from the inside out. 2 part epoxy paints are wonderful for protecting steel, but lousy if the steel is not prepped properly. For the little more it costs, I think you're way far ahead to buy your steel pre-primed, where they will mechanically abrade the steel to remove the mill scale and paint it with a weldable primer. This eliminates the need of sand blasting which is very messy and not inexpensive. Once the boat is finished, I would want to put at least two coats of expoxy primer on the interior. Actually, I think I'd use the following painting scheme: 1. Coat of epoxy primer lime Ameron 235; 2. Sound damping paint like Mascoat Delta dB; 3. Another coat of 235; 4. Yet another coat of 235; 5. A coat of Mascoat Delta T insulating coating above the water line; 6. At least 2" of fireretardent closed cell polyurethane foam over the Delta T; 7. A coat of flat latex house paint on the foam because Brent says that will really make the foam inflammable and I believe him!

Yeah, I know that sounds like a lot of work, and it won't be cheap, but look at it this way: Once you've installed the interior a goodly portion of your hull will be inaccessible unless you're willing to tear out the interior! Do you want to worry about rust behind the bulkhead or under the overhead? I don't, so I would follow the above painting scheme to the letter. I like the Delta dB because some designs, particularly Roberts radius chine boats are flatish on the bottom and when the pound into the waves the hull has a tendancy to "ring." Delta dB would stop that. Of course you will want additional sound proofing in the engine space.

On my boat, the builder put a stainless (316) crash plate wrapped around the bow about a foot on either side. I wish he'd have made that plate wider and ran it down to the keel. Why? When the inevitable happens and you run into something, or as happened to me a drunk fisherman ran into me, the stainless crash plate gives extra protection to the hull and if the paint is damaged, there won't be any rust.

That said, if the boat is painted properly with multiple coats of high quality epoxy paint, it will be very tough and you won't get much rust anyway. What little does come up is easily dealt with.

Finally, after saying all the above, if I had the money I'd build an aluminum boat and not worry about rust at all! LOL

Regards,

Thomas

[SaltyMonkey]

Yachts66: Thanks for your comments. It's good to get a record here of all this. My head is spinning. You're absolutely right about the epoxy/layer/paint, and it answers a question that I was thinking about but neglecting to ask folks here.

I've been thinking a lot these last few days on building a custom steel boat. I just wish there were more resources here to do it. I feel it's probably easier to build it up north where you are - the talent and perhaps resources (steel etc). Unfortunately, I don't know any builders up there, and I'd be a bit distrustful to hire someone to work in that regard - cost overruns and nickel/dimed - if I farmed out the work. Would be great if I could order a Swain 33 or 36 and just outfit her to my needs.

Well, one thing I am going to look forward to anyway, and that's the intensive welding class I am taking shortly. Hopefully, I wont screw up.

[Yachts66]

Welding is the easy part. Most community colleges offer welding classes so it's affordable and it's really not all that difficult to master the skill. Myself, I prefer wire feed welders. Chipping slag is not my cup of tea, and most of my welding has been with the wire feeds, so you tend to gravitate towards what you know.

If you have a passion for steel boats, join the metal boat society: www.metalboatsociety.org They have a forum similar to this one, but dedicated to all things metal boat. There is a wealth of information to be had there.

If I were going to build a metal boat, I'd spring for a wire feed welder, something like a Lincoln 350, (a must if that boat was aluminum). I'd also want a plasma cutter. Gas outfits aren't used that much any more for cutting, but they are handy if you need to heat something up for bending.

If I were going to build, the one thing I'd pay extra for would be cutting files. Bruce Roberts offers cutting files on many of his designs these days as do several other designers. I think the extra money you spend there is well worth it. That's my opinion anyway.

If building your own boat, don't fall into the trap of buying a set of plans and then changing them because the boat is, "a little too short," or wide, or deep or whatever. Boats are not like houses. Yes we can live in both, yes you can add a room to a house without any complications most times, but not so a boat. Boats are very complicated structures and you really need to know what you're doing to design one. If the stock plans you're thinking about don't quite cut it....pay the designer to modify them; don't even think of doing it yourself. That is a disaster in the making. Again my view, but I'm sticking with it.

Given a choice between any Swan and a steel boat, I'd go with the steel boat. In the last couple of years two Oyster's have sunk when they ran into objects in the water. Swan's would have sunk too. Steel boats probably wouldn't have. No boat is unsinkable, but if I am going to run into something in the middle of the ocean, 1,000 miles away from land, I want to be in a metal boat. Then again, that's just me.

Regards,

Thomas

[boden36]

We have owned a steel yacht for 25 years. We built her in the backyard. If she had been anything but steel she would have been holed at least three times in her career.
Once a trimaran sailed into us when we were on a swing mooring. It broke its starbord float off at the crossmember, and just put a little dent in our cabin.
From both a safety and maintenance perspective, we have been very happy with steel.
Regards, Richard.

[Yachts66]

I love stories like this, I wish more people would share them!

Regards,

Thomas

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Yachts66

... 7. A coat of flat latex house paint on the foam because Brent says that will really make the foam inflammable and I believe him! ...

I think I’d need a lot more evidence, than that, suggesting that a Flat Latex house paint (any particular brand?) can be used a fire retardant or barrier.

[SaltyMonkey]

yacht66 - that's Swain 33 or 36, as in Brent Swain...not Swan

[Vic de Beer]

Hi salty,
In 1979 I build a 31ft steel sloop (Bahrens Seatrader) in South ASfrica. I sailed her for13 years and finally had to sell her (divorce settlement) in Nova Scotia, Canada. Since then she has travelled to the UK where she is undergoing a refit and should be ready for launchingh in the late summer.
I currently own a F'Glass 30ft Ballad but I feel that there is no material that will ever compare with steel.
The meterial of your boat is entirely dependent on what you are willing to deal with. Steel has rust, wood has rot and worms, f'glass has osmosis, aluminium has electrolysis..... so, pick your poison.
ASls, the main diference between stick and mig welding is, stick allows for better penetration and a stronger weld.
Happy sailing.