Steel vs Fiberglass

[dlj]

I've heard you can't get coal tar epoxy anymore. Anyone know if that's true? That would be a shame.

dj

[MicHughV]

Many towns/cities cater to the marine shipping industry. This is where I purchased all my paint.
Coal-tar epoxy paint comes in both one part and two part mixes.
I used the two part. It goes on really thick and can be poured, smooshed, etc, into areas, voids, weld seams, and so on,
I used 13 gallons of the stuff to paint the interior of a 38' boat.
Once it sets up, it hardens to a steel like finish. It is amazingly durable.

I am a retired structural marine engineer and coal-tar epoxy is still used to coat steel sheetpile, so I know it is available.

[Rohan]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

There are not that many steel boats around. Could not say with any precision, but probably, 1 in 10,000 boats might be steel. They are far and few between, this is for sure.

I was going to chime in with the same thing. This thread is a little ridiculous in the assumption that you can look at your local yacht market and decide "which will I choose, fiberglass or steel"?

Steel is the most common material in the world's navies and shipping industries (so it gives me doubt that it's really as problematic as many claim). But it's not common for pleasure craft. At all. Per yachtworld anyway, right now out of the 533 of sailboats for sale here in the Mid-Atlantic region, a whopping 4 are made of steel. So it's less than 1%, and I was surprised there were that many (for the curious, in that same group there were 3 made of aluminum and 8 made from wood). So even if you are hard-core committed to steel, your choices are extremely limited, unless you have a very generous budget and have one built custom made.

I have to admit though, I would love to have the confidence that if I collided with a rock, reef, bouy, iceberg, or even another boat, that my hull would likely prevail. Obviously not a guarantee though, as the Titanic proved...

[dannc]

Originally Posted by dlj

I've heard you can't get coal tar epoxy anymore. Anyone know if that's true? That would be a shame.

dj

For some reason I was under the impression that one could not get coal tar epoxy anymore as well but a quick search shows it for sale. Grainger had a five gallon bucket for $600ish and another company had the same bucket for $400 which was out of stock.

We helped a 50-60 foot Dutch dock a few months ago. Unfortunately, they had a very friendly dog on board, and after they got tied up, we started talking about dogs, instead of the boat. Dog are important but I wanted to know about the boat.

Pretty sure it was a steel boat, and was not built yesterday, but it was in great shape. I would think coal tar epoxy was used on the interior hull. If I had only started talking about the boat instead of the dog...

Later,
Dan

[Rohan]

Originally Posted by Liminal

The belief that fiberglass boats are "indestructible" by age alone is poppycock. Yes, many of them will limp along as coastal cruisers for many decades yet, but for serious heavy ocean passages they are hitting a wall.

Where is this wall? I am not a professional engineer, chemist, or boat builder. But I do know that the main problem with plastic (which of course is the bulk of the material in fiberglass or GRP boats) is that it DOESN'T decompose or deteriorate and remains in the environment for hundreds of years. In fact, it takes 450 years for a typical plastic water bottle to decompose!

https://www.forgerecycling.co.uk/blo...-to-decompose/

This thin yoghurt cup from the 1976 Olympics managed to sail for 50 years across the Atlantic ocean. And it wasn't even reinforced with glass fibers.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/yogourt-...each-1.3179706

[MicHughV]

As mentioned before...I am a retired structural marine engineer.

I have studied the rust problem with steel for many years.

To the casual observer, rust seems to be a problem, but, as an example, a 1" thick steel plate can throw off many, many inches of rust before it rusts thru'. A process that could take decades

One can google rusting in steel plates for days and days if interested, and learn that even rusty steel is extremely strong.

Off course, there are a variety of circumstances, different grades of steel, etc, etc, but at the end of the day, as far as this thread is concerned, rusting on a steel boat tends to be overrated, and fearmongery tends to be most prolific by those that know little about it.

At the heart of the matter, it seems that rust staining is very visible and noticeable, and often viewed with alarm.

I can tell you that after a passage of several weeks in boisterous seas, with waves constantly breaking over the bow, I have noted rust streaking emanating from the stanchion bases on the bow of my boat. They are stainless steel stanchions welded to a mild steel bracket, using stainless steel welding rods, but obviously, a few micro spots of mild steel were left exposed.

It's not a pretty sight, seen against a painted white hull, especially so by a casual observer walking past the dock, but it is not a structural issue and cleans up really easy.

Whether one choses to have a steel or fiberglass hull is, off course, a personal matter, I just want to add my 2c here, that steel is not the bugaboo some people make out to be.

[Cyrus Safdari]

There's no advantage and lots of disadvantages to steel, and no, you are not supposed to be hitting things in the first place so that's not an advantage of the harder steel, and in fact there's safety in being able to quickly get out of the way of collisions instead with lighter fiberglass boat. If you're in Baltic or hi lat waters, then steel has advantages but in Tradewinds& tropics, nope Imho. FG has several advantages including very easy repairs.

Tankers are built to basically rust thru their working life, and so rust isn't considered a problem in the commercial world but in pleasure boating, nobody wants to be stuck with a boat with lots of weeping rust marks and the hulls on sailing vessels are also much thinner than commercial tankers so after a bit of neglect the hulls get thinner and thinner and it 5akes a decent welder to make a waterproof weld etc etc hassle

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by dlj

I've heard you can't get coal tar epoxy anymore. Anyone know if that's true? That would be a shame.
dj

Coal tars are considered to be substances of Unknown or Variable composition, Complex reaction products, or Biological materials (UVCBs). They are complex mixtures of hydrocarbons (mainly aromatic), phenolics, and heterocyclic oxygen, sulphur and nitrogen compounds, and, as such, have no specific chemical formula, or structure.

Coal tars are the condensation products obtained by cooling, to approximately ambient temperature, the gas evolved in the destructive distillation (pyrolysis) of coal. This process occurs at integrated steel mills, with the resulting coal tars often delineated by the pyrolysis temperature (low or high).

Coal Tar has been reported as a mutagenic and carcinogenic compound, and has been prohibited, for use, in many countries.
Currently there are no regulations restricting or prohibiting coal-tar based sealant products, in Canada, but regulations [restrictions] are coming, in the Fall of 2024.

Regulatory initiatives directly targeting the use of coal tar-based sealant products were initiated in the United States when scientists confirmed, in the mid-2000s, that these types of sealants release PAHs, which can be harmful to human and ecosystem health.
As of today, coal tar sealants are banned in two states (Washington and Minnesota), in the District of Columbia, and in more than 30 cities, and counties, across the United States.

The European Union enacted the registration, evaluation, authorisation and restriction of chemicals (REACH) regulation on June 1, 2007. One goal of the regulation is to identify substances of very high concern (SVHC), and to adequately control and replace them, with alternative substances.
In January 2010, pitch, coal tar, high-temp was included in the List of substances of very high concern (SVHC), pursuant to Article 59(8) of REACH, becoming a candidate for eventual inclusion in Annex XIV (Authorisation List).
Pitch, coal tar, high-temp was submitted to the authorisation list in 2019, with a sunset date on April 10th, 2020.
This means that it is prohibited to produce, or use this substance, in the European Union, without an authorisation.

Rust-Oleum advertises “High Performance C9578 System” two-component Coal Tar Epoxy. This high-solids, polyamide-converted epoxy, includes refined coal tar pitch.

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

It at Uma from sailing Uma in the recent tear down videos, well she was not a well constructed boat,

There really wasn't any problem with the boat itself, the fact that bulkheads weren't sitting on the hull was to avoid hard spots and was common practice
The rest of the issues were things like moisture damage

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

There really wasn't any problem with the boat itself, the fact that bulkheads weren't sitting on the hull was to avoid hard spots and was common practice
The rest of the issues were things like moisture damage

Yep, a Pearson 36 is a cheap mass produced boat.

When Dan and Kika get done with her, she will be the nicest example of one around.

However when you consider the work they have had to do to her, like replacing the floors to stop a wagging keel, glassing the deck to the hull because it had begun leaking, all of the mass produced boat problems.

If it was what you could afford, they were a fine boat, but there were plenty of better options.

That being said I am looking forward to seeing what Dan and Kika get done with the new interior, because I quite admire their creativity and the way they get things done. I personally have got quite a bit of inspiration from watching them over the years.

[dlj]

Originally Posted by dannc

For some reason I was under the impression that one could not get coal tar epoxy anymore as well but a quick search shows it for sale. Grainger had a five gallon bucket for $600ish and another company had the same bucket for $400 which was out of stock.

I had a friend working on a steel boat and said he couldn't get coal tar epoxy. I'm guessing he didn't look hard enough.

That's horrible stuff to work with, but is the best interior primer for a steel boat that I know of. Glad it's still around. It's also a real pain if you have a boat with it, and you want to weld something in an area it was applied. As they say, do it right the first time....

dj

[Fore and Aft]

Luxepoxy High build epoxy is the modern equivalent without the smell. I have used both and Luxepoxy is an excellent paint if applied properly. The biggest issue with Luxepoxy is that it doesn't flow so you need to run an electrical current over it (jeeping) to find the pinholes.
Cheers
https://www.duluxprotectivecoatings..../luxepoxy-uhb/

[dlj]

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

There's no advantage and lots of disadvantages to steel, and no, you are not supposed to be hitting things in the first place so that's not an advantage of the harder steel, and in fact there's safety in being able to quickly get out of the way of collisions instead with lighter fiberglass boat. If you're in Baltic or hi lat waters, then steel has advantages but in Tradewinds& tropics, nope Imho. FG has several advantages including very easy repairs.

There are always advantages and disadvantages to any material choice. Sure, one is not "supposed" to hit things with your boat. I dare say there is not a sailor here that has not done so in one way or another at some point.

For myself, I can count numerous times I've run aground. For sure if you are running the trade winds, there may be advantages to a plastic boat. The beauty of sailing is there is a boat for everyone....

Easy repairs in fiberglass may be for you. For me it's a royal pain. I much prefer making repairs in steel. It depends upon your skill set and desires.

As to steel boats being slow, simply because they are steel is simply misplaced. That is a function of boat design. Not the material it's made from. Of course, when we are talking about modern high speed race boats then looking at strength to weight ratios becomes important, hence the move into high tech carbon fiber composite construction. That is a different world with different constraints.

dj

[Jim Cate]

As to steel boats being slow, simply because they are steel is simply misplaced. That is a function of boat design. Not the material it's made from.

Yes, it is a matter of design... but steel construction does place some limitations on shapes that can reasonably be fabricated and that fact influences design.

Moulded glass has few limitations on shape, so designers can go wild... and sometimes this can be good in terms of speed. View the latest "scow bow" shapes seen in extreme ocean racing designs. Those would be very hard to generate in steel (and would doubtless be way too heavy if they could be made).

This may not be an issue in cruising boat design, that's for sure. However, our Jon Sayer designed cruising boat (strip plank western red cedar) has hollow bow sections that would be damn hard to make in steel and which help her achieve good windward performance... something important to us

YMMV

Jim

[Bowdrie]

[QUOTE=Jim Cate;3795715]
Moulded glass has few limitations on shape, so designers can go wild.../QUOTE]

Ha-ha, that reminded me of a line I read decades ago, to wit;
"The biggest downfall of fiberglass is that it allowed, nay rewarded, the mass production of ugliness".
IMHO, truer words are seldom spoken.
Yacht design is a practicing art, as L. Francis wrote, "The most important attribute that a designer can cultivate is a sense of proportion".
Again, IMHO, truer words are seldom spoken.