Steel vs Fiberglass

[dlj]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Yes, it is a matter of design... but steel construction does place some limitations on shapes that can reasonably be fabricated and that fact influences design.

Moulded glass has few limitations on shape, so designers can go wild... and sometimes this can be good in terms of speed. View the latest "scow bow" shapes seen in extreme ocean racing designs. Those would be very hard to generate in steel (and would doubtless be way too heavy if they could be made).

This may not be an issue in cruising boat design, that's for sure. However, our Jon Sayer designed cruising boat (strip plank western red cedar) has hollow bow sections that would be damn hard to make in steel and which help her achieve good windward performance... something important to us

YMMV

Jim

Good point. There are limitations working with all materials. But for a cruising boat can't say I see any real limitations that would make steel boats notably slower than any other material used.

dj

[CarlF]

Steel starts being worth considering above 60ft. Below that, aluminum is a better way to go. Unpainted aluminum boats are a joy to own.

Buying a used steel boat is almost never a good idea.

Steel boats have terrible resale values because the market of poetentiwl steel boat buyers is very, very small.

[ausnp84]

The majority of folks out there will have only ever owned one type of boat, or their “friend” will have had a bad type of boat, and so they’re working off hearsay. You’ve done the right thing asking for actual opinions.

Here’s my experience:

Boat #1 - GRP sloop
Fast, comfy, low maintenance (some deck leaks), would question taking it offshore

Boat #2 - Steel sloop
Slower, more seakindly motion, was a full bare steel refit (mild steel as well btw) so zero rust, fully customisable, took it offshore and loved it

Boat #3 - GRP cat
Nice boat, flexed quite a bit, deck fittings constantly leaked

Boat #4 - ply / epoxy cat
Fast, low price but low resale, solid as a rock

Boat #5 - cold-moulded tri
Fast, well insulated due to wood, suffered terribly from leaks and had bad osmosis, so needed a big refit

Tbh, your hull material is the least of your worries when buying a boat. Do you want a mono or multi? What are your intended cruising plans and grounds? What can you afford? What are your DIY skills? Are you ok with a refit / what age boat do you want?

Once you get through all of that (esp budget), then pick a hull material. Plenty of knowledgeable folk on this forum so ask away!

N

[Goodxcharly]

I admire steel for its invincibility trait. Though after having sailed on one the trait I noticed was every wave almost comes over the bow. Close hauled of course or goes through waves. That was a 43’ steel sailboat.
Fiberglass goes over the waves. My preference.
Rust is the other issue.

Dave

[Leighpilot]

Once you get past a certain size , steel or fibreglass construction will make no difference in handling or performance of the same design. I see no point in buying the problems inherent with steel unless you’re planning on bumping into ice or rocks on your cruise. Sure if you’re exploring the Arctic etc steel will have an advantage. Other than that. Nope

[danamatic]

I have build my own steelyacht. If you use the right steel corrosion is not a problem. Still look good after many years use. See the building on this site.

https://www.baadgalleri.dk/fotoalbum...g_af_staalbaad

[jalmberg]

It all depends on the sailor. All boats require about the same amount of maintenance. The difference is that you can neglect a plastic boat for many years because it’s, well, plastic. Steel and wooden boats can’t be neglected. You have to keep up with them.

I own, and would only recommend, a European steel boat. Americans have never really taken to steel boats, so there were never any serious steel boat builders. The French and Dutch are much more experienced and produce much better steel boats (the French seem to dominate modern plastic boats, too.)

The weight issue is mainly a red herring. Yes steel is heavier than fiberglass, but my 40’ steel ketch has 5-6mm plate. Many similar boats have more than 1” thick fiberglass. So the hulls end up the same weight.

Steel boats should NOT have horizontal stringers, only vertical frames. The horizontal plates should overlap, creating a double layer at the joint which serves as the stringer, but not creating a ledge that traps water. This is basic steel construction 101. Run away from a steel boat with stringers.

However, it really depends on you. If you can see yourself keeping up with the maintenance, go for it! If you are a bit lazy, then stick with fiberglass.

Good luck!

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by jalmberg

Steel boats should NOT have horizontal stringers, only vertical frames. The horizontal plates should overlap, creating a double layer at the joint which serves as the stringer, but not creating a ledge that traps water. This is basic steel construction 101. Run away from a steel boat with stringers.

However, it really depends on you. If you can see yourself keeping up with the maintenance, go for it! If you are a bit lazy, then stick with fiberglass.

Good luck!

Hmmmm... my steel had horizontal stringers and we never had a water / condensation catchment issue, although I can see how it’d happen. Properly insulated AND with an appropriate air gap between the insulation and inner skin, there shouldn’t really be an opportunity for standing water. Surely overlapping steel would have it’s own issues with a potential corrosion crevice?

Either way steelies are good fun and maintained properly, will last a long time. I rebuilt mine in 2010 and she’s still going strong with the new owner in Montenegro. That puts her hull at about 60 years old which ain’t bad for a boat!

N

[Threemonkeys]

I appreciate everyone's input. At the end of the day the boat itself isn't the dream it's the journey...the world exploration. I just want a strong, dependable, smooth sailing yacht that I can go to sleep with less stress worrying about that less than 1 percent chance that I will hit some mysterious floating metal object in the middle of the Pacific at night while the nearest rescue is 3 days away. Steel, for me, is very attractive. But I'm guessing a heavy FG hull would be close enough like, say, a Hudson Force or something along that line. Something is telling me that is probably a bad idea...

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Threemonkeys

I appreciate everyone's input. At the end of the day the boat itself isn't the dream it's the journey...the world exploration. I just want a strong, dependable, smooth sailing yacht that I can go to sleep with less stress worrying about that less than 1 percent chance that I will hit some mysterious floating metal object in the middle of the Pacific at night while the nearest rescue is 3 days away. Steel, for me, is very attractive. But I'm guessing a heavy FG hull would be close enough like, say, a Hudson Force or something along that line. Something is telling me that is probably a bad idea...

It isn't a 1% chance it is a 0.0001% chance given the rates that boats sink from hitting submerged objects (excluding land). The number of sailors who are dead because they were too arrogant and harness in while on the deck alone is magnitudes higher. Honestly it is not something to worry about but if it paralyzes you from sailing offshore look to boats with watertight bulkheads.

Even steel is no guarantee you won't sink when hitting a submerged object given the number of wrecks I have dived over the years.

The big disadvantage of steel boats as someone else pointed out is they are rare. If you decide it must be a steel boat you have already eliminated 95% to 99% of the market. You might have to drive hundreds of miles just to get to the closest option. If fiberglass was as terrible as you think it is there would be plenty of new steel recreational boats being made because consumers would be demanding it.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by ausnp84

The majority of folks out there will have only ever owned one type of boat, or their “friend” will have had a bad type of boat, and so they’re working off hearsay. You’ve done the right thing asking for actual opinions.

Here’s my experience:

Boat #1 - GRP sloop
Fast, comfy, low maintenance (some deck leaks), would question taking it offshore

Boat #2 - Steel sloop
Slower, more seakindly motion, was a full bare steel refit (mild steel as well btw) so zero rust, fully customisable, took it offshore and loved it

Boat #3 - GRP cat
Nice boat, flexed quite a bit, deck fittings constantly leaked

Boat #4 - ply / epoxy cat
Fast, low price but low resale, solid as a rock

Boat #5 - cold-moulded tri
Fast, well insulated due to wood, suffered terribly from leaks and had bad osmosis, so needed a big refit

Tbh, your hull material is the least of your worries when buying a boat. Do you want a mono or multi? What are your intended cruising plans and grounds? What can you afford? What are your DIY skills? Are you ok with a refit / what age boat do you want?

Once you get through all of that (esp budget), then pick a hull material. Plenty of knowledgeable folk on this forum so ask away!

N

Curious: how do you get osmosis in a cold molded timber boat hull? Seems impossible to me.

Jim

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by cruizn

Steel is hard ... fiberglass is soft. Steel is heavy - slow.. fiberglass is light - fast.

That's the obvious out of the way. .

Depends on the boat.
Plenty of larger boats can have an inch or more of fibreglass in their hulls
Steel of a similar strength may well be lighter or certainly comparable.

[Bill Streever]

Originally Posted by Liminal

My two cents as a trained fiberglass technician, competent multi-material welder, and who self-surveys "cheaper" boats as my hobby:

Would never touch a used steel vessel with what I have seen personally and the nightmares I have seen other folks end up with even after very careful surveys: the tales of discovering "structural paint" while at sea are extremely real. Any steel vessel is going to require a hull-up total interior removal refit after a few decades with at least some replating during that, no matter how thorough the original interior coating was. Significant costs involved there.

If you want a used metal boat, buy aluminum, it will be much easier to determine if it has been damaged by electrolysis. If it hasn't, and you take care of it - it will outlast the sun with minimal maintenance.

Aluminum and Cold-Molded are, in my opinion, the two best choices to pursue for used market vessels. Well worth the additional hassle of carefully surveying and finicky maintenance.

Fiberglass is fine and dandy, easy to repair once you have the skills and mostly indestructible by time, but it has material fatigue limits (as do metal boats) which you don't often hear about - and many vessels over the 40 year mark are almost certainly starting to approach these no matter how tight the owners have been with upkeep. An older foam-cored hull would, in my opinion, be a suicidal choice - wave action induced delamination of the skin to foam bond is a real and serious consideration for those vessels.

While the common logic in the 90's to 00's was to buy a cheap 70's/80's boat and refit it for modest cost, that was over twenty years ago. Broadly speaking in 2023 I would not set to serious offshore passages on a boat older than the late 1980's (of any construction) without accepting that my hull is approaching the end of its materially useful lifespan and there are risks stemming from that which go above those usually found offshore.

Folks will chime in with "poppycock, there's thousands of 60's & 70's boats sailing around out there just fine to this day!" and they're correct. One can, of course, ride a time bomb for what is perceived as indefinitely - if you don't know when the timer is going to run out.

----

I don't want to say "poppycock," but can you point to any references about fiberglass material lifespan? Anyone else have anything to add to thoughts about fiberglass having a "use by" date, regardless of maintenance? Thanks!

[Bill Streever]

I don't want to say "poppycock" regarding eventual failure of fiberglass regardless of maintenance, but can you point to any references about fiberglass material lifespan? Anyone else have anything to add to thoughts about fiberglass having a "use by" date, regardless of maintenance? Thanks!

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Threemonkeys

Hello all



I'm looking for a monohull that's either fiberglass or steel with a strong preference for steel. I have my opinions about both as everyone does but I just don't have any real world experience to support those opinions. For those with experience why do you prefer one over the other? More importantly, is there something about steel that I ought to know that probably don't? I would be buying a used one. Thanks in advance!

I build and owned and sailed three steel Van de Stadt yachts 36, 40, 48...
These are excellent designs and sail well..
Advantages, incredibly strong, running aground you might get a dent but the don't brake up like glass or wood.
Chain plates are welded on, ballast can be encapsulated, through hull fittings are welded in, engine bearers are simple, strong and easy to change ..
Repairs are easy
Epoxy paint systems are excellent

Disadvantage
Weight...
Ongoing maintenance, especially around the deck area.
Electrolysis/galvanic corrosion...is a big one and a well designed electric system is a must.
The hull should be build without fore and aft stringers...as the can trap water...limber holes...
Deck and hull needs to be insulated from heat and noise.

Fiber glass
Less cosmetic maintenance on hull and deck..no corrosion...
Not as noisy as metal boats
Choice of used boat market a lot bigger.

A grounding can certainly fatally damage the under water body...
Major repairs are a lot more complicated..
Prone to ANNOYING LEAKS, windows, chain plates, hand rails, stounchions, cap rails, deck joints, especially older boats..Ask me how I know..I work as a boat builder.
Ballast keel repairs...keel bolts, sometimes they can't be extracted.
Possible OSMOSIS and depending of the damage done can be very expensive to repair properly...time consuming...gelcoat stripping.