Surfing downwind on a cruiser?

[Ex-Calif]

I think we have a definition problem - as usual.

For me -

Surfing - Extended periods sailing above hull speed usually downwind characterized by the first 25-30% of the hull being out of the water for extended periods of time.

Accelerating on a wave front - Short periods sailing above hull speed usually downwind characterized by the stern being lifted the bow remaining in the water and the wave passing the boat in short order.

Planing and surfing a large boat is super advanced sailing also characterized by a fully trained crew knowing what they are doing at each crew position.

Surfing a large cruising boat short handed, inexperience handed or with small kids on deck is pretty irresponsible.

I am not nearly good enough, confident enough or crazy enough to try and surf a large cruising boat for a sustained period. I have accelerated down a number of wave faces...

[donradcliffe]

There are boats which are designed and built to surf, and there are boats which are not designed to surf. I once raced a Reichel-Pugh 48 to Cabo when we had to beat down the coast the first half of the race. We were way ahead of the Santa Cruz 50's, but then the wind turned around and blew 25-30 knots from behind. We were doing a 10-12 knots, but we saw a Santa Cruz 50 coming up from astern, and when they went by they were doing 12 knots in the lulls and over 20 in the surfs (with a lot of whooping and hollering). We were averaging over 250 miles/day, but they were making 350. Was I jealous!

Boats designed to surf have flatter bottoms, which makes them pound more upwind. They are also more lightly built and more prone to structural failures. Off the wind, they are much less likely to get pooped or pitchpole, as they are fast enough to move away from the vertical part of a breaking wave.


Carrying enough sail to really surf is dangerous under the autopilot. I once ran before a gale out of Bora Bora in a Santa Cruz 40, and hand steered 12 hours with a reefed main. My best surf was 18.5 knots, and my wife was getting 16. However, come nightfall we were knackered so I double reefed the main and put on the autopilot. Within half an hour it had gybed us-- the mainsheet wrapped around the steering pedestal and then ripped it off the deck when we gybed back. The high end autopilots on the single-handed round the world boats can handle most surfing conditions, but when they fail the results are sometimes catastrophic.

I agree with Estarzinger that a double headsail rig with no mainsail is a way of increasing the sail area on a cruising boat to surf with relative safety. It balances the boat and puts the center of effort further forward. My double headsail experiments on a 58 footer I was delivering across the Atlantic were curtailed when the rudder started to vibrate badly over 12 knots. Control wasn't a problem, but the bloody rudder had a trailing edge an inch wide and was shedding vortices.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

I think we have a definition problem - as usual.

For me -

Surfing - Extended periods sailing above hull speed usually downwind characterized by the first 25-30% of the hull being out of the water for extended periods of time.

Accelerating on a wave front - Short periods sailing above hull speed usually downwind characterized by the stern being lifted the bow remaining in the water and the wave passing the boat in short order.

Planing and surfing a large boat is super advanced sailing also characterized by a fully trained crew knowing what they are doing at each crew position.

Surfing a large cruising boat short handed, inexperience handed or with small kids on deck is pretty irresponsible.

I am not nearly good enough, confident enough or crazy enough to try and surf a large cruising boat for a sustained period. I have accelerated down a number of wave faces...

G'Day Dan,

Well, to me surfing involves the accelerating down the wave front... just like on a board. When conditions are right, one can stay on a wave for a while, even on a performance oriented cruising boat. I think that it requires that the wave propagation velocity be somewhere near the speed of the boat.

Race boats usually use such a surge to get onto a real plane, and have the horsepower to stay there much longer. That's when you get your bows out of the water picture that you call surfing. The Volvo boats and others do this all the time, and produce fantastic daily runs.

I guess it's a matter of semantics... call it what you will, it can be fun and add a few miles to the days run. I don't feel that this is irresponsible or particularly dangerous.

Cheers,

Jim

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I guess it's a matter of semantics... call it what you will, it can be fun and add a few miles to the days run. I don't feel that this is irresponsible or particularly dangerous.

Cheers,

Jim

I don't disagree with your definition of surfing. I have sailed pretty fast and I have been in some broaches.

I just feel that some posters here have had the stern lifted, hove gone over hull speed for 10 seconds and call that surfing. I don't call that surfing.

In regards to real surfing you are close to boat limits and I disagree when you say it is unsafe. It may be safe for a trained race crew and like I said I have gone downwind pretty fast.

However I don't agree it is safe for "mom and pop with a 4 year old on deck."

Like I said I think folks on this thread are talking about different things regardless of what they are calling them.

[kbudd]

I crossed Lake Michigan last summer west to east with a southwest wind 20-25kn in our Gulfstar 43 ketch (22,000 lb plus beer). Perfect conditions. With full main, mizzen, and asymmetrical we averaged over 8 knots for 70 miles and later in the day when the waves had built to about 8 ft we hit 13 knots once surfing down a wave. We saw over 10 knots a lot.

[zeehag]

surfing is something boats do without help on a downhill run. is our job to make some semblance of control in the movements of our boats. mine likes to surf. go figger. she also likes biiiig winds. but then sh was designed to handle what was brought to her weatherwise. i wont sail in a hurryame or anything named.

sorry if your sloop cant handle the winds i have had to take. ditto seas. mebbe ye just need more time at sea under wicked conditions. practice, practice, practice......but i never had to sail uphill in snow.lol ty celesetial..LOL is a goood one.

[zeehag]

btw, randyonr--Originally Posted by Randyonr3
I dont doubt it in the least Zee, as "You're Formosa" will do or has done most anything any other boat built will do, both faster, easier, and with more comfort..
We all know you have the ultimate cruising boat, you've told us so.

i am not the formosa--as your grammar has stated--the formosa is a boat. i am a human who owns the boat..

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by zeehag

btw, randyonr--Originally Posted by Randyonr3
I dont doubt it in the least Zee, as "You're Formosa" will do or has done most anything any other boat built will do, both faster, easier, and with more comfort..
We all know you have the ultimate cruising boat, you've told us so.

i am not the formosa--as your grammar has stated--the formosa is a boat. i am a human who owns the boat..

Zee as a grammar Nazi!

Now I have seen everything - LOL...

[zeehag]

not a fgrammar nazi-but the misuse of conjunctives should wrankle everyone, as the individual cannot seem to get it right. i was educated, despite not having degrees in anything other than nursing, should have gotten my 480 units turned over inbto 3 bs degrees, but i didnt. if someone wants to make a point, then that soul HOULD use the proper conjunctions--hell, one didnt even have to go to school for that--was on conjunction junction on sesame street or electric company--all kids of that generation watched the shows, and should know their conjunctions and possesives.
just because i cannot type doesnt mean i dont know my native language and more than 2 others.
i hve to guffaw when someone who consistently bashes me for my typing abuses has to come up with bad grammar..lol.....so my answer to the basher is ---SAIL MORE AND GATHER EXPERIENCE IN SNOW SAILING UPHILL....lol..and rmember--isnt the human who is the boat--is the boat..LOL big difference between your and you are....LOL

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by zeehag

surfing is something boats do without help on a downhill run. is our job to make some semblance of control in the movements of our boats. mine likes to surf. go figger. she also likes biiiig winds. but then sh was designed to handle what was brought to her weatherwise. i wont sail in a hurryame or anything named.

sorry if your sloop cant handle the winds i have had to take. ditto seas. mebbe ye just need more time at sea under wicked conditions. practice, practice, practice......but i never had to sail uphill in snow.lol ty celesetial..LOL is a goood one.

You got a get off this trip zee, you are doing nothing but make yourself look like a fool. Your boat won't surf, its a full displacement hull, and a heavy one at that. Falling off the face of a wave in high wind is not surfing.. riding the face for more than just a few seconds and for extened periods of time is surfing.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by zeehag

i hve to guffaw when someone who consistently bashes me for my typing abuses has to come up with bad grammar..lol.....so my answer to the basher is ---SAIL MORE AND GATHER EXPERIENCE IN SNOW SAILING UPHILL....lol..and rmember--isnt the human who is the boat--is the boat..LOL big difference between your and you are....LOL

Zee - Ya gotta know we all love you bunches but the typing thing is getting a "little" old...

Heck it only takes one finger and Stephen Hawking seems to be able to manage.

Sure it slows ya down and honestly I don't care two hoots about someone's grammar or spelling. But you are who you are and you come with, shall I say, "interesting" typing...

Some may remember that fellah in Guam that couldn't string a couple of words together. I defended him a bunch even to the point of people suggesting he be banned for bad spelling - LOL...

If grammar is gonna make ya uptight it's better to disconnect from the internet for a while - LOL...

Oh, and back on topic, I am sorta with Randy. Your boat is an awesome boat in weather but I'm gonna need surfing pics before I swallow that whale tale...

[foolishsailor]

Lets keep this on topic folks.

I think the topic was "Surfing downwind on a cruiser" and not "How can we bash on each other for kicks"

thanks

[Bash]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

I think the topic was "Surfing downwind on a cruiser" and not "How can we bash on each other for kicks"

Did someone call for Bash?

I'm amazed at how many sailors take it for granted that they will broach every now and then. That's like saying that it's okay to spin out on the freeway on the way to work every other Tuesday.

About a year ago, I made the claim, "I never broach." Some forum members thought I was prevaricating at that point. But no, I haven't broached since I was a young racer trimming the chute while someone else had the helm.

Except for a few of the old IOR "Broach Coaches" that haven't yet turboed their rudders, it's not possible to broach if your trim is right. Period. It will only happen when you are overpowered.

The guy who says, "Well, I didn't realize we were overpowered until we broached," needs to learn how to read the gusts.

Ask yourself why the best racers never broach: it's a slow way to sail, and it can get really expensive really fast.

The guy back at the club who claims that he'd have won the overally championship if he hadn't broken his boom halfway through the summer--he's the one that needs a good bashing.

[sailorboy1]

While like I said earlier I tend to sail my boat for comfort, most of the time this barely slows me down.

But I have surfed and it is fun and comfortable in the right conditions. But once this starts going on I start asking myself if we are going to be safe and happy if the conditions get a little worst, and if the answer is no then we decide it is time to slow down (probably don't really slow down just are in more control).

Had someone a couple of weeks ago on my boat and the wind was picking up, so I reefed. He got all passive aggressive about that we got have left the sails up, "but that it was my boat"! Hell yeah it was my boat and the reef slowed us down .3 knots (then the wind picked up more). Don't know if I'm going to invite him again!

If people want to push their boat hard etc that is just fine with me. I'll just take the money I save by not breaking stuff and go to an amusement park for an exciting ride there instead!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bash

Did someone call for Bash?

I'm amazed at how many sailors take it for granted that they will broach every now and then. That's like saying that it's okay to spin out on the freeway on the way to work every other Tuesday.

About a year ago, I made the claim, "I never broach." Some forum members thought I was prevaricating at that point. But no, I haven't broached since I was a young racer trimming the chute while someone else had the helm.

Except for a few of the old IOR "Broach Coaches" that haven't yet turboed their rudders, it's not possible to broach if your trim is right. Period. It will only happen when you are overpowered.

The guy who says, "Well, I didn't realize we were overpowered until we broached," needs to learn how to read the gusts.

Ask yourself why the best racers never broach: it's a slow way to sail, and it can get really expensive really fast.

The guy back at the club who claims that he'd have won the overally championship if he hadn't broken his boom halfway through the summer--he's the one that needs a good bashing.

+1

I believe you, Bash, because in decades of sometimes foolishly overagressive sailing, I've never broached either (excluding my one season of racing 420's in college, but that was 35 years ago, and those boats are made to broach ). One single time 20 years ago I stalled the rudder on one friend's crappy Catalina 27 on a lake in a strong wind, overpowered, but it did not turn into a full broach, because my hand was on the mainsheet, which I blew in milliseconds after the rudder gave up.

It should be said that it is very hard to know when you're overpowered when you're sailing downwind. On the wind or on a reach, a mono will heel and tell you how it's feeling (and will depower itself somewhat, too, by presenting less sail area to the wind), but on a run, you don't get nearly as much information.

My simple anti-broach technique when running in anything over 20 knots is just to get rid of the mainsail altogether. Simples. You don't need it, anyway, and sailing on headsail alone moves the center of effort way far forward where very little yawing force is exerted on the boat. Like that I've spent hours surfing at 12 - 13 knots in 40 - 50 knots winds and big waves without the slightest concern about broaching.