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crankysailor · 26-09-2022, 07:16

So with my boat out on the dry for repairs and wintering, here I am sitting on the couch pondering about a possible upgrade.. until now I have been on the encapsulated keel, they don't build them like they used to, heavy displacement camp. After some years cruising on and off however, I must say the whole 40 year old boat thing is getting .. well .. old. Tanks impossible to get to, plumbing older than myself. Less available storage and tankage than similarly sized more modern boats. And then one keeps wondering.. hell it is the year 2022, things advance. Is it really so that the best boats stopped being built at the end of the last century?

So, if one is looking at upgrading to a boat from this century, it seems to me like no manufacturer has put out any sailboat with a "traditional" hull shape in the last .. 20 years? the ultra wide flat designs with spade rudders and bulbed fin keels that dominate today... I mean.. IF they really are no good on anything above 6Bft etc.. has the world really gone mad? is virtually _no one_ buying sailboats now to sail? seems hard to believe to me.

SV Confianza · 03-10-2022, 18:14

I would argue that most buyers still want to sail. They just want to sail faster.

Pegu Club · 03-10-2022, 19:41

Well Cranky, it depends on what you believe to be an “upgrade” , as to storage space capacity, our 1977 Bristol 29.9 has more storage space than many 34 - 36 foot newer sailboats, but with an old school hull form and a 24 foot waterline we aren’t fast by modern standards, but we do a fair bit of sailing none the less, ya gotta ask yourself, what are you actually gaining by “upgrading” other than debt, or a smaller balance in your savings accounts?

You could just drop a bunch of coin and have the old girl repainted from the water line up, put in some new electronics, and call it a day, and still come out ahead money wise, compared to buying new, again it depends on what you believe to be an “upgrade”.

Fair winds,

crankysailor · 04-10-2022, 00:09

Well.. I also want to sail faster and is one less of a sailor if one looks at the neighbors with a bit of envy how they enjoy not climbing over each other to walk around the boat and can afford to shower?

But I also value a skeg to protect the rudder and and not having to worry about keel bolts. Love sailing upwind with a sea kindly motion and hoving to when needing a short respite.

Thats where my divagations lie. Is it truly thus that one can't find a ("production") boat made in the last 10 years with those qualities? Ok I think Malö here in Europe is one of the last ones to build anything like that. But then..how come traditional yards like Hallberg Rassy have also widened their hecks, flattened the front of their huls and bolted a fin keel and spade rudder? then one wonders? are ones notions of sailboat design outdated? Maybe they aren't so bad. I know, I need to get on them and try them sometime. Never have.. as I said, I am just..couch sailing..

Mickeyrouse · 04-10-2022, 04:49

The sea has not changed. What we think we can do with it has. I sail a design drawn in 1959, and built in 1973. I’ve been at this over 50 years now, and admittedly some of my ideas are getting fossilized. But the latest crop of designs do not look to be seaworthy, and they seem more influenced by fad and fashion rather than practicality. Many are very spacious in accommodation, but sacrifice stowage and accessibility to achieve it. No doubt they are quite pleasant at anchor or for a weekend. There have been great advances in materials, and technologies since I first sailed. There have also been great failures of builders. From my perspective, a serious upgrade of an existing well-though out, well-built boat would be a good idea. Do not make the mistake of considering it a good financial investment other than as to alternatives you may personally have. Boats are lousy investments. And I don’t regret a single dime I’ve mis-spent along the way.

goboatingnow · 04-10-2022, 05:45

Speed under sail , hydrodynamic efficiency. Light airs performance. Helm Response.

The sea hasn’t changed the demands of customers have other wise we’d all in square riggers.

a Sailing boat is a engineering vehicle as more is understood about hydrodynamics and modern materials builders can light AND strong

Heavy encapsulated Keels ard largely a holdover from wooden construction.

People these days want to sail and sail fast.

Go fin and spade , go light , sail fast , live slow.

I think modern stuff is great, who wants a teak coffin with the sailing characteristics of a brick.

That why none of that “ auld “ stuff is built anymore. Nobody wants it.

Modern yachts are taking more people to sea and over significant distances then anytime in previous history. Very seaworthy production craft are plying the oceans. The proof is out there in front of you. I watched two Beneteau Oceanis leave for the US from geeece. Both had few issues crossing.

Just saw a jeanneau being prepped for a voyage med to Australia. Looks great

50 years if you sailed a small boat to Australia the Queen would have likely knighted you. !!

Tetepare · 04-10-2022, 07:33

Gozzard still makes "traditional style" boats. Here's the 31 https://secureservercdn.net/50.62.90...-Blueprint.pdf

Hallberg-Rassy has gone to a more modern hull design, and I doubt anyone is going to denigrate that design.

Buying new, or newer, is not going to eliminate maintenance and updates; it may reduce it.

Where the new boats, yes the production boats, shine is ergonomics for day-to-day use. More space, more stuff accessible, better hoses, lots of cockpit space, etc. Some will argue whether particular elements are "blue water" and I can't disagree; but for most people the modern boats are just so much more ergonomic.

**Adelie** · 04-10-2022, 08:28

There are some heavier boats still being built and sold today:
Pacific Seacraft
Cape George.

Most boats today are designed for what the market will pay a premium for:
Comfortable and stylish living amenities. The vast majority of folks sailing are racers or daysailors with the occasional overnight or weekend trip. A smaller group costal sails. A very small group makes passages and visits out of the way places.

The current big manufacturers don’t worry much about their boats going offshore because very few do.

The relative merits of newer vs older designs and construction methods are going to be very dependent on intended use and would be a very involved discussion.

**Adelie** · 04-10-2022, 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Gozzard still makes "traditional style" boats. Here's the 31 https://secureservercdn.net/50.62.90...-Blueprint.pdf

Hallberg-Rassy has gone to a more modern hull design, and I doubt anyone is going to denigrate that design.

…...

Most sailors wouldn’t denigrate Oyster but they had a keel fall off 7 years ago.
https://yachtemoceans.com/polina-star-iii-keel-loss/

goboatingnow · 04-10-2022, 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adelie

There are some heavier boats still being built and sold today:
Pacific Seacraft
Cape George.

Most boats today are designed for what the market will pay a premium for:
Comfortable and stylish living amenities. The vast majority of folks sailing are racers or daysailors with the occasional overnight or weekend trip. A smaller group costal sails. A very small group makes passages and visits out of the way places.

The current big manufacturers don’t worry much about their boats going offshore because very few do.

The relative merits of newer vs older designs and construction methods are going to be very dependent on intended use and would be a very involved discussion.

The vast majority of production boats now or before ever went trans oceanic. Possibly more are doing it now then ever. Very few boats were ever produced specially for ocean sailing

Modern boats are all good and will generally take you across ocean you want. Especially in 45 foot and above which is common these days.

The square riggers have passed into history. The heavy long keelers are going that way too.

I’m waiting for the first foiling 40 foot cruiser !! Boy that will be a sight

These days there are loads of yards producing “ expedition “ boats Ovni , Garcia , etc etc.

Cheechako · 04-10-2022, 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by crankysailor

So with my boat out on the dry for repairs and wintering, here I am sitting on the couch pondering about a possible upgrade.. until now I have been on the encapsulated keel, they don't build them like they used to, heavy displacement camp. After some years cruising on and off however, I must say the whole 40 year old boat thing is getting .. well .. old. Tanks impossible to get to, plumbing older than myself. Less available storage and tankage than similarly sized more modern boats. And then one keeps wondering.. hell it is the year 2022, things advance. Is it really so that the best boats stopped being built at the end of the last century?

So, if one is looking at upgrading to a boat from this century, it seems to me like no manufacturer has put out any sailboat with a "traditional" hull shape in the last .. 20 years? the ultra wide flat designs with spade rudders and bulbed fin keels that dominate today... I mean.. IF they really are no good on anything above 6Bft etc.. has the world really gone mad? is virtually _no one_ buying sailboats now to sail? seems hard to believe to me.

Well, first off, I would say modern boats often have LESS tankage than old boats. But I understand your point. If you are going to have a modern boat, then very small tankage is maybe the way to go, have a water maker and a small tank.
Most boats are built for weekend sailors, not offshore. Speed, room, ease of handling balanced rudder are what people like. Oh... and marble, Corian and fancy upholstery! That has a large effect on what is built. Offshore is the equivalent of off road 4 wheeling. You dont take a Nissan Sentra 4 wheeling.

Tetepare · 04-10-2022, 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheechako

You dont take a Nissan Sentra 4 wheeling.

Off topic, but I did. It was a low-end rental. It made a horrible noise when it bottomed out on rock. Oh, and the ergonomics suck as compared to a Toyota.

Back on topic, yes a 40 YO boat can be work. Pretty much everything except the motor has to be replaced, even if it was replaced 20 years ago it's due again.

We're refitting a 1994 and the ergonomics are pretty good; it is NOT blue water. But boy is it comfortable. Anyway though, even since we got it last year a good half dozen things stopped working, just because of age.

I can tell you one thing, the Admiral is not ever going "back" to a boat without refrigeration, or without a walk-through transom, doesn't matter what it is.

Cheechako · 04-10-2022, 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Off topic, but I did. It was a low-end rental. It made a horrible noise when it bottomed out on rock. Oh, and the ergonomics suck as compared to a Toyota.

Back on topic, yes a 40 YO boat can be work. Pretty much everything except the motor has to be replaced, even if it was replaced 20 years ago it's due again.

We're refitting a 1994 and the ergonomics are pretty good; it is NOT blue water. But boy is it comfortable. Anyway though, even since we got it last year a good half dozen things stopped working, just because of age.

I can tell you one thing, the Admiral is not ever going "back" to a boat without refrigeration, or without a walk-through transom, doesn't matter what it is.

Actually... that makes two of us!

I rented a little Sentra in Cancun. Over the 10 days we adventured south almost to the border with Belize to some little village called Xcalac or Bacular Chico or something like that... Had to ask at huts for someone to cook dinner.
It turned out that the "road" was just white sand through palm trees for 50 + miles! We were ripping through though but every once in a while there was a solid rock hidden in the sand. Bam! Broke a strut in that rental car. Just k ept going.