The criteria of "blue"

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by minaret

I assure you, after having just worked on one, it is no toy. You definitely would not want to deliver this type of vessel on its own bottom. By the time it got there, it would be a used boat for a vessel in this class. They are absolutely pristine. Floating art.

WRT the finish etc. I absolutely agree.

[Zai]

Looks like the consensus is you gotta have plenty of green if you want to go blue!!

[weavis]

Menorca is blue as well.

[paulanthony]

Do we think wood represents a blue proposition for sailing now that we have metals, glass and composites.

There is this wooden yacht in New Zealand. It is quite contemporary in its build and is encapsulated in a resin skin I believe. However, I have notice it has been on the market for quite a long time now and to me it looks awesome but clearly others must worry that its one of natures own.

2010 17m Pilothouse Ketch Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Do we think wood represents a blue proposition for sailing now that we have metals, glass and composites.

There is this wooden yacht in New Zealand. It is quite contemporary in its build and is encapsulated in a resin skin I believe. However, I have notice it has been on the market for quite a long time now and to me it looks awesome but clearly others must worry that its one of natures own.

2010 17m Pilothouse Ketch Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -

My 2c on this is that wood can be fully oceanworthy for unrestricted service, but it is not ideal. The reason I would say this is that in MOST wood constructions, every seam is a possible seacock, and this makes these boats particularly vulnerable to the likes of whalestrike, as has been historically demonstrated. Further, personally I don't like the idea of ANY of my below waterline structures being vulnerable to organic rot. I can mitigate galvanic corrosion, rot, very hard.

Oh, and beautiful boat, but the price is quite high IMHO.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

My 2c on this is that wood can be fully oceanworthy for unrestricted service, but it is not ideal. The reason I would say this is that in MOST wood constructions, every seam is a possible seacock, and this makes these boats particularly vulnerable to the likes of whalestrike, as has been historically demonstrated. Further, personally I don't like the idea of ANY of my below waterline structures being vulnerable to organic rot. I can mitigate galvanic corrosion, rot, very hard.

Oh, and beautiful boat, but the price is quite high IMHO.

What about if it is wrapped in resin? Would the timber then not be as foam core component although clearly a structural one.

I think that example is over priced also but I find most self builds seem to be pushing the boundaries. I am sure there is room to negotiate but do you think the resin skin changes the reliability and safety proposition for ocean voyaging?

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

What about if it is wrapped in resin? Would the timber then not be as foam core component although clearly a structural one.

I think that example is over priced also but I find most self builds seem to be pushing the boundaries. I am sure there is room to negotiate but do you think the resin skin changes the reliability and safety proposition for ocean voyaging?

I am no wooden boat builder or expert. However according to what I have understood through researches related to the loss of the Nina, it is my understanding that glassing of wood may make the usual wood issues better, but particularly if it is done as part of the ORIGINAL build. Once wood has been used a lot in water, and particularly if the glass has been added in lieu of a full and superexpensive rebuild, it can actually make things significantly worse, by trapping moisture against the hull in an area thereby rendered inaccessible to inspection. Caveat emptor.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

What about if it is wrapped in resin? Would the timber then not be as foam core component although clearly a structural one?

Most NZ-built yachts are one-offs and the boatbuilding skills here are as good as you'll find anywhere in the world. Insufficient information on this particular vessel but it's common to build yachts here from triple-skin kauri (about the best boatbuilding timber there is) sheathed in dynel/epoxy. This is vastly superior to the sort of ply-sheathed-in-polyester used for decks on a few fibreglass production yachts (polyester/glass doesn't adhere well to timber). Some argue that proper wood-composite construction (timber/dynel/epoxy sandwich) is the most maintenance-free build you can get - but dependent on the skill of the builder (and designer) of course.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Most NZ-built yachts are one-offs and the boatbuilding skills here are as good as you'll find anywhere in the world. Insufficient information on this particular vessel but it's common to build yachts here from triple-skin kauri (about the best boatbuilding timber there is) sheathed in dynel/epoxy. This is vastly superior to the sort of ply-sheathed-in-polyester used for decks on a few fibreglass production yachts (polyester/glass doesn't adhere well to timber). Some argue that proper wood-composite construction (timber/dynel/epoxy sandwich) is the most maintenance-free build you can get - but dependent on the skill of the builder (and designer) of course.

Again not a wood boat expert but I would have to query this. Surely a correct layup of solid epoxy/glass is going to be better than that? And could you clarify whether you would concur with my understanding that the sheathed wood builds really must be sheathed from first build to be effective, and not suspect?

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Again not a wood boat expert but I would have to query this. Surely a correct layup of solid epoxy/glass is going to be better than that? And could you clarify whether you would concur with my understanding that the sheathed wood builds really must be sheathed from first build to be effective, and not suspect?

It's called cold molded and this type of construction has been around a long time with a good reputation

[dannc]

Originally Posted by downunder

What about the Diesel Ducks!!

Kasten has some trawler designs that use sail but the Buehler and Sea Horse Marine Diesel Duck designs are better for our needs/wants.

Later,
Dan

[barnakiel]

Fram was wood and all Dampier's ships were too. As Dampier sailed rtw three times and Fram wintered in the Arctic, we can ask no further proof of wood being legitimate.

Now which wood technology is better and which is best is open to discussion.

I find cold molded diagonals in epoxy on par with GRP laminates. They seem to share the weaknesses too - think of the keel / hull interface that seems to be equally vulnerable on a First and on that 'triple skinned diagonal Kauri' or whatever. Very right angles are possibly not all right in wood and plastic boat design.

When the design is matched to the job and the due maintenance is there, wood, plastics and metals seem to be doing just fine.

b.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Fram was wood and all Dampier's ships were too. As Dampier sailed rtw three times and Fram wintered in the Arctic, we can ask no further proof of wood being legitimate.

Now which wood technology is better and which is best is open to discussion.

I find cold molded diagonals in epoxy on par with GRP laminates. They seem to share the weaknesses too - think of the keel / hull interface that seems to be equally vulnerable on a First and on that 'triple skinned diagonal Kauri' or whatever. Very right angles are possibly not all right in wood and plastic boat design.

When the design is matched to the job and the due maintenance is there, wood, plastics and metals seem to be doing just fine.

b.

Certainly, though they had professional shipwrights and carpenters aboard, wood stores, and an ability and expectation to rebuild the boat on the hoof… how many cruisers may say the same?

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

.... Surely a correct layup of solid epoxy/glass is going to be better than (wood/composite)? And could you clarify whether you would concur with my understanding that the sheathed wood builds really must be sheathed from first build to be effective?

Okay, yes to both.
- Solid epoxy/glass (if there are such beasts around) would be horrendously expensive but I guess it would be about as durable as it's possible to get (short of titanium or some other exotics), all other things being equal. Epoxy would normally only be used to sheath a new-build timber hull (inside and outside) or to barrier-coat the outside of a polyester/glass hull, either of which should be very low maintenance.
- Sheathing an old wooden hull to try to prolong its life is more likely to hasten its demise; no one does this any more.
- And yes Paul - proper wood-composite is akin to a cored sandwich hull (balsa or foam), as it's sheathed with resin both inside and outside. Cold-molded refers to the particular type of construction of the wood core, which nowadays would normally be sheathed both sides, making it wood-composite. Each different core material has its own advantages and disadvantages of durability.

Volumes have been written on durability of different hull materials, but I guess most every production yacht is still polyester/glass, with the better builders using vinylester/glass, or maybe even epoxy, for the outer layers.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Most NZ-built yachts are one-offs and the boatbuilding skills here are as good as you'll find anywhere in the world. .

That's because Kiwi's are Brits on the inside. I tend to agree having spent an hour and a bit reading up on the subject. This particular example is designed from the ground up to be epoxy encapsulated so imagine it would be a great beast of burden.

Incidentally, there are quite a lot of wooden boats for sale in New Zealand so seems the skills are definitely there for this construction medium.