The Death of the Ketch ?

[Rustic Charm]

I still think the easiest way to determine the two is that a Yawl has the Mizzen on the transome hanging out the back of the boat and a Mizzen has it further forward with the sail reaching towards the transome. And that seems to fit most, if not all the pictures I can google.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ketch or Yawl has nothing at all to do with the Underwater Profile..
If the Mizzen is fore of the helm its a ketch.. aft of the helm its a Yawl..

Not the helm, but as Hudson Force correctly pointed out, the rudder post. Plenty of ketches have the mizzen abaft the helm.


The definition involving the rudder post, for whatever it's worth (probably little), is an old racing definition which allowed the mizzen on yawls to be not counted as sail area, so they were "cheater" sails.

The traditional definition has nothing to do with the rudder post or position of the mast -- if the mizzen is intended for producing power, it's a ketch, if it's little bitty and mainly for balance, it's a yawl. Older designs with lower sail plans were more sensitive to fore-aft balance of the CE of the sail plan, so a sometimes tiny mizzen was sometimes used for balance.

Like others on here, I love ketches. The ketch rig compromises pointing ability and adds drag, but how many "gentlemen" sail to windward, anyway? There are a thousand compensating virtues.

The bigger the mizzen, and the greater the separation from the mainmast, the fewer the disadvantages. So this rig works better, on bigger boats. Dashew's Sundeer ketches are particularly nice.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I still think the easiest way to determine the two is that a Yawl has the Mizzen on the transome hanging out the back of the boat and a Mizzen has it further forward with the sail reaching towards the transome. And that seems to fit most, if not all the pictures I can google.

Right. Because if you're using the mizzen for balance, you need it to be as far aft as possible, often right on the transom, where it exerts the most leverage.

[CHAZ]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

I understand Chaz's operational definition for a yawl being identified by the mizzen stepped at a point aft of the waterline length; however this definition fails when you consider that it's not uncommon for a vessel's waterline (ketch or yawl) to continue to the full length of the vessel.

Thanks HF for your understanding but I must say it is not 'my' operational definition, it is one of three (3) definitions in all the German yacht/boat literature. A second definition has to do with the Lpp (length between perpendiculars) in German (Laenge zwischen den Loten) and this definition includes somehow the rudder post, then the third one that deals with the rudder post alone. Most often a ketch fits within all three definitions.
As for yawls they are mostly seen on yachts with raked sterns hence the outside of the waterline (Hinckley Bermuda 40). It gets a little more technical with canoe sterns or double enders, but this has to wait for "dinner is ready".

http://booksite.elsevier.com/samplec...0750649889.PDF

Good reading for non NAs like me, it helped me to understand a tiny bit more.

Fair winds to all
Martin

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Not the helm, but as Hudson Force correctly pointed out, the rudder post. Plenty of ketches have the mizzen abaft the helm.


The definition involving the rudder post, for whatever it's worth (probably little), is an old racing definition which allowed the mizzen on yawls to be not counted as sail area, so they were "cheater" sails.

The traditional definition has nothing to do with the rudder post or position of the mast -- if the mizzen is intended for producing power, it's a ketch, if it's little bitty and mainly for balance, it's a yawl. Older designs with lower sail plans were more sensitive to fore-aft balance of the CE of the sail plan, so a sometimes tiny mizzen was sometimes used for balance.

Like others on here, I love ketches. The ketch rig compromises pointing ability and adds drag, but how many "gentlemen" sail to windward, anyway? There are a thousand compensating virtues.

The bigger the mizzen, and the greater the separation from the mainmast, the fewer the disadvantages. So this rig works better, on bigger boats. Dashew's Sundeer ketches are particularly nice.

Being a European.. wheel steering came late to us.. so rudder post/tiller is much of a muchness to us old bugga's..

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

... The definition involving the rudder post, for whatever it's worth (probably little), is an old racing definition which allowed the mizzen on yawls to be not counted as sail area, so they were "cheater" sails. ...

That's my understanding too, at least for the 1960s Bermuda races, The extra mast also allowed one to hang a staysail. ... The yawl seem to have come and gone decades ago.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Being a European.. wheel steering came late to us.. so rudder post/tiller is much of a muchness to us old bugga's..

Understood

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...
Like others on here, I love ketches. The ketch rig compromises pointing ability and adds drag, but how many "gentlemen" sail to windward, anyway? There are a thousand compensating virtues.

Me too, but I like schooners better.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by markpierce

That's my understanding too, at least for the 1960s Bermuda races, The extra mast also allowed one to hang a staysail. ... The yawl seem to have come and gone decades ago.

Don't know about that.. the Salcombe Yawl is very active in the UK.. fleets race all summer and new ones are still knocked out now and then.
Admittedly you can't do more than camp on one but..

[beiland]

Originally Posted by markpierce

Me too, but I like schooners better.

How about this schooner,...just ran across these photos recently,.... in a 'free-standing mast' discussion I believe it was...

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Not the helm, but as Hudson Force correctly pointed out, the rudder post. Plenty of ketches have the mizzen abaft the helm.


The definition involving the rudder post, for whatever it's worth (probably little), is an old racing definition which allowed the mizzen on yawls to be not counted as sail area, so they were "cheater" sails.

This is what i remember as well,....another case of the racing rules designing our vessels rather than 'mother ocean'.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The traditional definition has nothing to do with the rudder post or position of the mast -- if the mizzen is intended for producing power, it's a ketch, if it's little bitty and mainly for balance, it's a yawl. Older designs with lower sail plans were more sensitive to fore-aft balance of the CE of the sail plan, so a sometimes tiny mizzen was sometimes used for balance.

Like others on here, I love ketches. The ketch rig compromises pointing ability and adds drag, but how many "gentlemen" sail to windward, anyway? There are a thousand compensating virtues.

The bigger the mizzen, and the greater the separation from the mainmast, the fewer the disadvantages. So this rig works better, on bigger boats. Dashew's Sundeer ketches are particularly nice.

Good posting.

[beiland]

After this extended clarification of what distinguishes a ketch from a yawl, I suggest it would be interesting to explore the use of a staysail rigged between the 2 mast of either of these rigs.

There use to be a number of instances where an aux staysail could be rigged on a stay between the top of the aft mast and the base of the mainmast. If you google images 'staysail ketch' you would find a great number of such photos.

What I began to explore a number of years ago was instances where the mainsail was ditched in favor of this 'between the mast' staysail. This early example on a Morgan Out Island ketch was an eye-opener for me. Regrettably that article is long ago lost to my knowledge.

Conventional booms excessively flatten the foot of the mainsail, and are often oversheeted, contributing significantly to the leeway forces. I once had a copy of a test on a Morgan 41' Out Island ketch , where upon removing the mainsail, the boat lost only 1/2 knot of speed, but cut its leeway in half (from 11 to 6 degrees). A staysail was then rigged between the masts in place of the mainsail, and the boat regained 1 knot of speed while retaining its decreased leeway.Sail Propulsion - Revisiting a Mast-Aft Sailing Rig

I also remember seeing a 50+ Tayana yacht that had done the same.
Are there other examples?

[minaret]

Here's a few pics of my favorite staysail ketch-it's always been one of my favorite rigs, along with the staysail schooner. This particular boat is a 94 ft. ketch I used to do a lot of work on. It always struck a chord with me. The previous owners cruised her as a couple until in their late 80's-just goes to show what the rig is capable of!


Havfruen-

[beiland]

Thanks for that posting Minaret.
Wow, 94 footer by an older couple.

That staysail appears to have its own boom as well.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by beiland

Thanks for that posting Minaret.
Wow, 94 footer by an older couple.

That staysail appears to have its own boom as well.

Yes, loose-footed but self tacking. Best of both worlds.