The great multi vs mono debate

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by smj

Did you watch the video of the catamaran sailing the Southern Ocean?
I’m guessing a pretty good fetch so yes the waves were large and steep. The wind was blowing 65+ kts and they hit a top speed surfing of 34 kts. while on a drogue.
This was a standard 39’ Leopard charter catamaran and the crew seem to be having a great time......notice they don’t seem to be strapped to the helm?
No roll wallow and broach on that catamaran? Doesn’t seem to stuff it’s bows either?
The crew on the cat were probably peeing their pants from the exhilaration and excitement. Would these be the same conditions that would give you the brown pants on your monohull?

That was a very good video, Sailing in 40 foot waves,
The crew were casually sitting around enjoying the trip,
I believe they had sailed from Africa across under Australia,
It was good for me to see the conditions and actually sailing in them,
As I will be doing that trip in a year or so, Perth to Melbourne,

I was very wary of the Southern Ocean trip as Ive only done Bass Strait in winds in excess of 40 knots, It was at night, So I couldnt see the sea state,
I turned my spreader spot lights on and I had a huge hole in front of my boat,
I didnt like what I saw, So I turned them off again,
It was one very wild violent night, But my cat handled it ok,

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by smj

Did you watch the video of the catamaran sailing the Southern Ocean?
I’m guessing a pretty good fetch so yes the waves were large and steep. The wind was blowing 65+ kts and they hit a top speed surfing of 34 kts. while on a drogue.
This was a standard 39’ Leopard charter catamaran and the crew seem to be having a great time......notice they don’t seem to be strapped to the helm?
No roll wallow and broach on that catamaran? Doesn’t seem to stuff it’s bows either?
The crew on the cat were probably peeing their pants from the exhilaration and excitement. Would these be the same conditions that would give you the brown pants on your monohull?

SMJ, I know you follow catamarans way more than I do. When was the last time you heard of a cruising cat pitch poling due to surfing a wave? For me - never. I have heard that the first generation of cruising cats - pre 2000's - and short - could do this. But a modern cat?

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by wingssail

And my experience is that, other than some of your typical trade wind ocean crossings, a helluva lot of passages include windward work. In the Caribbean, in the Leeward Islands almost every inter-island passage, north or south, involves windward work.

The charter cats all reach as hard or as much as they care to, end up to leeward of their destination, then motor the last bit. That's fine, No Problem, but don't call it great sailing performance.

That strange. From Martinique to Dominica, to Les Saintes, Guadaloupe, Montserrat, St Kitts & Nevis and on to Sint Maarten were all either down wind or beam reach for me.

Glad as my cat can get uncomfortable on almost any point of sail. Though that being said was perfectly fine in 45knts coming into Islas Desertas, and absolutely hideous on a number of occasions with 2m waves on the beam about 7 seconds apart.

[MicHughV]

ok, let me jog my memory here a bit....as I recall it happened in July, late July I think, can't remember now.

The boat was my homebuilt Roberts 38.....a center cockpit steel ketch..
Location was probably 250 miles south of Bermuda, maybe a bit more...in the heart of the "Bermuda Triangle"...dum dum...dum dum.
Though we had received a weather forecast prior to leaving Bermuda, it was iffy at best.
My crew mate had a flight to catch, which prompted our departure against my better judgement.
Interestingly, the weather had been worsening day by day, until one morning, everything just went to hell. It didn't happen all at once, so we had ample warning.

Though I had limited weather data on board, I did have SSB and Ham, and was in contact with shoreside folk feeding me weather info. At one time, I thought a hurricane might be developing over my head, but this was not the case.

I was also in touch with another boat via SSB, that was in my vicinity, he reported similar conditions and getting knocked down, mast in the water, but that did not happen to me.

At a later date, I was trying to figure out what happened and was told that there are unsurveyed seamounts in the area....ie, like Bermuda may have been once..that may have influenced the sea conditions....but I don't know about this. The seas were stupendous in size. Bigger than anything I have seen, before or since.

I did not have a wind speed indicator at the time, but was in contact with Bermuda Harbor control and the other boat, which did, and I was told that the wind was in the 60 knot range. 60 knots is serious wind, I'm here to tell you. We took to wearing dive goggles to move around the boat. I had a dive bag lashed behind the mizzen, but this also disappeared.

The height of the seas, I measured by eyeball, against the spreader location on my mizzen mast. This was easy to do, as the waves were literally on top of my boat. At a rough guess....15-20' and higher. The seas were not breaking per se, but the huge crests were getting blown off. The period between the waves was surprisingly short.

This storm developed over a period of days, getting worse with each day. Each day, I was hoping it would get better, but it didn't.
There were only two people aboard. Myself and a friend.
It probably took 2-3 days for this storm to develop and we were in it, for 48 hours or thereabouts. We were likely heading into it.

My course, at the time was south, and the wind was south-west, so I was hard on the wind. After a while, progress in this direction was futile and we considered all our available options.

I did not have a proper drogue at the time and tried all sorts of things to slow the boat down, line in a bight, dragging an anchor on floats, etc, but nothing worked.

In desperation, we took the storm jib and bundled it up in a big wad with ropes around it and tied it to a spare nylon anchor rode (5/8"), about 200' in length. This was deployed from the stern and did the trick, but even with this, we were still doing 5-6 knots under bare poles, sliding down waves. When it was all over, we were blown about 150 miles off course. I was grateful at the time to be on a steel boat as the strain on that drogue line was impressive. Another boat, the cleat might have pulled out. At times that line was bar tout.

We did go down below one more time to get a position fix and talk on the radio. At night, I had a mast tri-color light which shone on my wind direction indicator, helping me keep the boat at an oblique angle to wind and waves.

The seas were constantly breaking over my boat, first from ahead and then from the stern. We were underwater a lot.

Pretty much everything and anything,tied to the top of the boat was gone. I had several 5 gallon fuel jugs lashed against the lifelines. These were all gone. You could hear them banging against the side of the hull for a brief period...and then silence...and I knew they were gone.

At one time, we did take a quick peek below to assess the damage. Rolling on the cabin sole was a jar of peanut butter, this we rescued and it became our sole source of food for 2 days. We ate it, using our fingers. For water, we just opened our mouths and caught rainwater funneling down the main boom.

Going to the bathroom (head) was out of the question.

The inside of my boat was utter chaos. Everything was thrown everywhere and it was all wet. Seawater was coming in thru' the dorade vents and also the sliding hatch cover over the companion way. It wasn't just spray, it would be an entire wave. We literally had to hold our breath as it washed over us.

The exhaustion really took it's toll. We couldn't really sleep in the cockpit as we were always hanging onto something. Towards the end, about an hour behind the wheel was all we could manage at time.

Lessons learned....

Ha, this should be easy.. (#1) don't leave port to meet a schedule.
We toyed around with several ideas..lying ahull....sailing in a different direction, etc.....but in the end (#2) we decided that to keep the boat moving and giving us some steerageway was our best option. This I would do again in a similar situation.
(#3) don't have stuff tied alongside the lifelines.
(#4) we should have prepared some better sustenance than a jar of peanut butter. I think some packaged health bars, etc, would have been easy to do, but we didn't think to do this.
(#5) This was not my first Bermuda trip....weather routing is key, but even the best weather forecast is only good for a day or two. However, there are a number of shoreside weather guru's that you can contact by SSB or Ham..in my day, we had Herb Hilgenberg and some others...some are a paid service....but I can certainly recommend having a shoreside weather guru on your payroll if you are planning to cross an ocean.
(#6) number of crew for an ocean voyage....this is a tough one....some people singlehand, and I have done this myself, but my crew mate was a terrific and experienced sailor, who was a blessing to have on the boat. At a minimum, I would say 2 people, but 3 would be better, 4 even better yet. Getting some decent sleep on a boat is very much dependent on crew. Experienced crew is especially wonderful.
(#7) A proper drogue. Some people may use a parachute sea-anchor in this type of situation. We did consider this, (briefly), that to deploy our makeshift drogue from the bow, but in the end decided that maintaining steerage way was our best option, and I still believe this is what I would again in the same situation.
There are probably several more things of importance, just can't think of them now.


Trust this has given some guidance.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Palarran

SMJ, I know you follow catamarans way more than I do. When was the last time you heard of a cruising cat pitch poling due to surfing a wave? For me - never. I have heard that the first generation of cruising cats - pre 2000's - and short - could do this. But a modern cat?

Now that you mention it I’ve never heard of a cruising cat pitch poling, not that it’s never happened but must be extremely rare.
Reminds me of the book Children of Cape Horn written by Rosie Swales about their cruise around Cape Horn on their late 60’s Oceanic 30 catamaran. If I remember correctly she talks about the huge waves in the Southern Ocean and surfing down their faces, but never pitch poled or capsized.
In my opinion downwind or a broad reach is one of the most comfortable and safest points of sail on most catamarans.

[MicHughV]

..some years back....Miles and Beryl Smeeton pitchpoled their boat, Tzu Hang, in the southern ocean....late 50's I think, maybe 60's...it was a ketch I believe...40 some feet long

Southern ocean waves tend to be far apart....the stuff I was in, the waves were piled right on top of each other..it could have been a meander of the Gulf stream, wind against waves kind of thing..but rare to see the Gulf Stream in that location...the waves sprang up very quickly though...from 5-6' to 15-20' in the blink of an eye it seemed. Very cobalt blue water. Makes one wonder?

There is also YT video of the earlier round the world races of boats in the southern ocean, upside down...broken keels, etc...s__t happens, I guess.

I've seen plenty of video's of cats doing the tradewind run to the Caribbean...always seemed like a nice pleasant ride to me...made me consider one of them for the longest time...but decided to stick with what I know.

I ran into a homebuilt cat, that had been built in South Africa and sailed to the Caribbean. The owner, his wife and kids onboard. At night, they all " went to bed" and left the boat to take care of itself. Crazy, yes, but true story.

I've also seen video's of cats upside down in the Pacific....couldn't really tell you why.

One thing of note, the crew of capsized cats, generally stay with the boat, even upside down...

Mono's typically will come back up after a roll....cats...nope. Nonetheless, no escaping the fact that a mono has a 10,000 lb chunk of lead wanting to take you down.

I think the modern day cat is carefully thought out, regarding rig and sail area. A roll could happen, I suppose, but conditions would have to be just right for such a thing to happen.

There is a certain element of risk when you sail the oceans. I don't think there is any one thing that could spell danger for a yachtie.

Interesting topic though....enjoy reading the threads...

[Mr B]

50 odd years ago, Cats did pitchpole, No doubt about it,
They were overpowered and had very tall masts,

Since them the masts were lowered in height, Less sails, Which corrected the problem,
Now, A cat that goes over does it sideways,

Too much sail up and beam on to the waves, Centre Boards down,
The Leeside board digs in, stops the boat from sliding down the waves, And over they go,
Ive nearly done it myself, I was asleep at the time, GPS dropped out in 20 foot waves, I went beam on to the waves, And the boat nearly went over sideways when the Leeside board dug in, I spun it sideways, I didnt care whether it was up the wave or down it, As long as I wasnt beam on to the waves,
Yes, It was ignorance on my part, I was still learning to sail it,

Now, I dont travel with the Leeside board down, Ever, I learnt my lesson, The hard way,

Its more to do with the Ego, Pushing the boat beyond its limitations, Or just ignorance in most cases, That causes a Cat to fall over sideways,

This excludes Cyclones, Hurricanes and Typhoons, Where the Tidal surge and floods afterwards does the damage to all boats,

Cheers, Brian,

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by Mr B

50 odd years ago, Cats did pitchpole, No doubt about it,
They were overpowered and had very tall masts,

Since them the masts were lowered in height, Less sails, Which corrected the problem,
Now, A cat that goes over does it sideways,

Too much sail up and beam on to the waves, Centre Boards down,
The Leeside board digs in, stops the boat from sliding down the waves, And over they go,
Ive nearly done it myself, I was asleep at the time, GPS dropped out in 20 foot waves, I went beam on to the waves, And the boat nearly went over sideways when the Leeside board dug in, I spun it sideways, I didnt care whether it was up the wave or down it, As long as I wasnt beam on to the waves,
Yes, It was ignorance on my part, I was still learning to sail it,

Now, I dont travel with the Leeside board down, Ever, I learnt my lesson, The hard way,

Its more to do with the Ego, Pushing the boat beyond its limitations, Or just ignorance in most cases, That causes a Cat to fall over sideways,

This excludes Cyclones, Hurricanes and Typhoons, Where the Tidal surge and floods afterwards does the damage to all boats,

Cheers, Brian,

Most of the cats you will see out cruising in the Med and in Caribbean don't have boards. They are mostly mini keels. Lagoons, FPs, Leopards, Nautitech, etc..

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Most of the cats you will see out cruising in the Med and in Caribbean don't have boards. They are mostly mini keels. Lagoons, FPs, Leopards, Nautitech, etc..

A mini keel will do the same as a Leeside board down,
It digs in on a wave and stops you sliding down the wave,
It will still flip you over sideways,

Majority of Cats Ive seen upside down, Have mini keels pointing skywards,

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by Mr B

A mini keel will do the same as a Leeside board down,
It digs in on a wave and stops you sliding down the wave,
It will still flip you over sideways,

Majority of Cats Ive seen upside down, Have mini keels pointing skywards,

is that just because the majority of cats have mini keels ?

although there are cats with mini keels that have flipped (for all sorts of reasons), isn't it still more likely - proportionally - to be a cat with boards (esp lee side) down ?

our mini keels definitely do not do as much as a board does in stopping the boat sliding sideways, and sliding sideways is a major part of avoiding the dreaded upside down feeling.

cheers,

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by chrisr

is that just because the majority of cats have mini keels ?

although there are cats with mini keels that have flipped (for all sorts of reasons), isn't it still more likely - proportionally - to be a cat with boards (esp lee side) down ?

our mini keels definitely do not do as much as a board does in stopping the boat sliding sideways, and sliding sideways is a major part of avoiding the dreaded upside down feeling.

cheers,

That's just it isn't it. People can't say cats without boards don't sail windward they have massive leeway since they slide through the water, and then say but the mini keels dig in and causing flipping.

Additionally, weight and loading was mentioned a few pages ago, but weight (in the right places) actually aids in dynamic stability.

[Palarran]

Sorry you catamaran owners but your focusing on the wrong subject in a mono vs cat thread. Keels falling off mono's - that's what we need to talk about.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Yep, and we could do with an update on that other non controversial subject, climate change, also.

Hmm. If you use facts and science there’s not a viable debate... [emoji3]

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Sorry you catamaran owners but your focusing on the wrong subject in a mono vs cat thread. Keels falling off mono's - that's what we need to talk about.

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[Time2Go]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

I am one of the people who is uncomfortable with the [what seems to me to be] jerky catamaran motion. I imagine one could go sooo big as to still be comfy. I was okay on an Outremer 55 on the hard, might be okay in the water.

But really, big new cats cost a small fortune. We've always bought previously owned monohulls, and our pocketbook has benefitted from the practice. Let the first owner pay for commissioning the boat. We have many years of mono experience to bring to bear, as well, making it a comfortable choice.

For me, there is also an aesthetic thing, to me, the boat sitting in the water looks like a cruising boat, whereas the cat sitting on the water looks a bit like a water spider. Again, just a personal thing, and I respect that cat owners love their boats, and that their choices fit them well enough...all boats being compromises.

Ann

Having done some long passages on Cats
I agree,Just hate the motion of a Cat .
especially in high winds and big seas.
For me personally, I like a big heavy Mono
with a well protected helm.
Being stuck out at the helm in snotty weather for
hours and hours is just not fun