The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

[Kenomac]

Poiu,

I would be happy to help you out with your maintenance and breakage issues. Our boat being a 53 would be a much more manageble size, so I recommend we swap boats, and allow me to deal with the additional headaches while you enjoy our trouble- free boat. We're fixing the mast swivel in the morning, so you'll be all set. Turn key.

Ken

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Poiu,

I would be happy to help you out with your maintenance and breakage issues. Our boat being a 53 would be a much more manageble size, so I recommend we swap boats, and allow me to deal with the additional headaches while you enjoy our trouble- free boat. We're fixing the mast swivel in the morning, so you'll be all set. Turn key.

Ken

Great idea. I can see it's appeal in theory. But weren't you the one that spent weeks fixing his deck not too long ago. Then a broken dinghy, then... this and that and then a swivel. You do know that when the swivel is fixed and you can use your mainsail again that your boat is setting you up for a few days rest before it throws its toys out of the crib again. There is no such thing as turn key, not even new yachts are turn key.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

I understand and mostly share your feelings on multis - I struggled with that one quite a bit myself.

It may surprise you, but I personally would (now) go composite for the mono, even for the 'high latitudes'. Perhaps not for a 'winter in the ice' boat, but definitely for 'summer cruising to the ice' sort of program. You just need to find a NA who understands composite's capabilities enough and is not totally locked into 'med racing or party boat scantlings' - eg you probably want to build it with significant external skin, ring frames on that skin, significant insulation, and then internal skin - so 'thick cored with internal frames'.

Do you know of any yard doing this on a semi-custom basis? Wouldn't the hull cost be astronomical for your described composite vs an aluminum hull?

Matt

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by poiu

I agree with all that. An easily driven hull needs less power. That means less heeling, less weight aloft and less drag from smaller rigging. Clearly finer is faster and relatively lighter is faster and you can have both with a bigger boat if you control weight and I agree it's all good. (Weight is also good for comfort and motion) Just one concern with thin boats is how much form stability you loose. I like the thought of water ballast and with a fatter boat compared to a thin one you have more room for it, it does more work being further from the centre and you have form stability on top to help yet further. Flatter sailing is faster and more comfortable. It is highly attractive to me to have less heeling. (Cat owners, I hear you). I would be interested to learn how these factors interplay with the advantages of being thin.

On the subject of fat or thin, I was reading about Comanche and Wild Oats XI recently. They both did the Sydney - Hobart race in the same time more or less. They are both 100' long and 32 tons. The former ridiculously fat and the latter ridiculously thin. The answer to my question may lie in that result.

One attractive feature in some of the Dashew boats is the design allows for fathead fully battened mainsails. They are I believe much more efficient. To plan for them may be a worthwhile ambition.

I looked up the Moody 54 D/L ratio and I have it as 202 from a Yachtingworld test. I don't know whose figures are correct.

Having crew is nice, but it is also not nice as I value my peace and privacy a lot. I feel the same way as you about maintenance. I am also getting a bit tired of it. I enjoy it, but it is too much at times. I have a really good part time guy to help me, but a lot of stuff is still two man work and he can't do it all. We spent nearly 4 days rebuilding a hydraulic ram and changing hoses recently. Ugh, I'd had enough when that was done, then three days after it was done the pump blew its seals and dripped oil on my head whilst sleeping and the system was down again. I may have to get a part time boat manager or something. I keep hoping the jobs will stop, but as soon as something is fixed, something else breaks. I now know this is the way it goes. One really high priority issue for my next boat is to minimise maintenance.

"I keep hoping the jobs will stop, " Ha, ha, ha, ha!! That's a good one. Rolling on the deck laughing my arms off.

Concerning crew: I am lucky that I am a gregarious sort and like to have people around, even employees. I choose them carefully.

Concerning form stability and the lever arm of water ballast -- the question is even more complicated than you think. You can have a hull which is fine at the waterline but with lots of flare. TJ's boat "Rocket Science" is like that. He also has water ballast and says it is the bomb. I would very much like to have it in the next boat.

Concerning fathead main sails -- yes. I don't know about the backstay-less rigs, but lots of roach is key. As is less weight and windage aloft. A thin carbon mast, in any case, and roachy main. It all means less ballast for the same stiffness and less D/L, i.e. more easily driven hull and/or stiffer.

I don't think I will second guess a real designer (made that mistake with architects once upon a time :headbang. I'll choose a designer I trust, give him the design brief, and let him come up with the right configuration, and try not to interfere too much.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Do you know of any yard doing this on a semi-custom basis? Wouldn't the hull cost be astronomical for your described composite vs an aluminum hull?

Matt

I personally would start with Home » Green Marine and Persico Marine if I were thinking of doing this.

There are a whole bunch of others who could - Bett's in the US for instance, but I have termendous first hand experience with those two and know directly they know how to do it well.

As to costs . . .just remember that the hull is only like 25% of the build cost, and the hull material cost is only a small fraction of that (you might actually have less hull labor than with an aluminum build). Sure it will be expensive, as any high quality custom-ish yacht will be.

ps I'v really only been looking at power boats the past couple years, so am a bit out of touch with what 'semi-custom' sailing hulls/molds are available where

[Wckoek]

I heard that drilling and fitting things can be a problem with carbon composites, maybe just hull alone and deck/frame other materials would have less an issue.
If the overall cost is just 10-20% more with carbon composite hull then it's worthwhile to pursue. But if above 30% for a yacht above 65 ft, it would be more economical to hire paid hands if maintenance was an issue.
Remember that hull problems are just a small part of the overall picture, when rigging, deck gears, hardware, engine, all requires attention.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

I heard that drilling and fitting things can be a problem with carbon composites, maybe just hull alone and deck/frame other materials would have less an issue.
If the overall cost is just 10-20% more with carbon composite hull then it's worthwhile to pursue. But if above 30% for a yacht above 65 ft, it would be more economical to hire paid hands if maintenance was an issue.
Remember that hull problems are just a small part of the overall picture, when rigging, deck gears, hardware, engine, all requires attention.

Carbon isn't really that much more that high quality glass. It isn't nothing but the days of it tripling or even doubling the hull cost are over.

Recently Bob Perry mentioned that on his 43' carbon cutters switching to glass would save about $25,000 per boat on the construction cost compared to carbon/epoxy. Now these are very heavy, thick hulled constructions, so the laminate schedule doesn't really compare to a series build like a Beneteau or Swan. But lets assume you were buying a new Beneteau Sense 46' for I think north of $400,000. Would an extra $25,000 for a full carbon hull be the deal breaker?

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Carbon isn't really that much more that high quality glass. It isn't nothing but the days of it tripling or even doubling the hull cost are over.

Recently Bob Perry mentioned that on his 43' carbon cutters switching to glass would save about $25,000 per boat on the construction cost compared to carbon/epoxy. Now these are very heavy, thick hulled constructions, so the laminate schedule doesn't really compare to a series build like a Beneteau or Swan. But lets assume you were buying a new Beneteau Sense 46' for I think north of $400,000. Would an extra $25,000 for a full carbon hull be the deal breaker?

Probably not, but I believe Bob is referring to production boat in his case.
But in the case of one off boat that is 60-65 feet and above, I'm not sure how much it is more expensive over aluminum.
I heard from someone who had work on Ghiaccio Bollente that the carbon hull is very difficult to fair, install things over, it is more prone to chipping and crack if not drilled properly. 20 years later, the hull is still unfinished and left for sale, another broken dream story.
McConaughey boats are building successful carbon fiber raceboats in China, not sure how much it would cost to have them build a hull and fitted by another yard.
The weight saving benefits of carbon fiber hull wouldn't bring as much benefit to a larger cruiser apart from the stated maintenance ease, it is cheaper to build longer waterline for a displacement.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

Probably not, but I believe Bob is referring to production boat in his case.
But in the case of one off boat that is 60-65 feet and above, I'm not sure how much it is more expensive over aluminum.
I heard from someone who had work on Ghiaccio Bollente that the carbon hull is very difficult to fair, install things over, it is more prone to chipping and crack if not drilled properly. 20 years later, the hull is still unfinished and left for sale, another broken dream story.
McConaughey boats are building successful carbon fiber raceboats in China, not sure how much it would cost to have them build a hull and fitted by another yard.
The weight saving benefits of carbon fiber hull wouldn't bring as much benefit to a larger cruiser apart from the stated maintenance ease, it is cheaper to build longer waterline for a displacement.

No Bob's boats are four custom but identical boats, not a production design.

Fairing carbon is just like fiberglass, you sand it smooth. I have don't both, I really can't tell the difference, though a real artisan at it might be able to share some differences for the average yard guy its the same. There might be a bit of difference in fairing epoxy versus polyester, but thats about it.

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by Stumble

No Bob's boats are four custom but identical boats, not a production design.

Fairing carbon is just like fiberglass, you sand it smooth. I have don't both, I really can't tell the difference, though a real artisan at it might be able to share some differences for the average yard guy its the same. There might be a bit of difference in fairing epoxy versus polyester, but thats about it.

Really, if that was the case that it didn't cost that much more in the overall cost than aluminum for say 20% it would be worthwhile to pursue, it will help resale cost too.
And we don't have to worry about wood rots, steel rusts, GRP delaminates and aluminum disintegrates anymore.

[Phoenician]

In pursuit of this unicorn, do carbon masts with in-mast furling even exist?

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by Phoenician

In pursuit of this unicorn, do carbon masts with in-mast furling even exist?

When researching for my possible project, I found a company AES, Advanced Engineering Service who specializes in design for mast and riggings, things like this would have to be custom designed and made, but with money, sky is the limit.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

When researching for my possible project, I found a company AES, Advanced Engineering Service who specializes in design for mast and riggings, things like this would have to be custom designed and made, but with money, sky is the limit.

Most carbon masts are custom made anyway. Unless you are going to repurpose a rig from an existing one design boat they pretty much all are one offs. Expensive for sure, but not outrageous.

My guess is you aren't going to find a lot of in-mast carbon masts because people who are willing to spend the money on carbon rigs won't tolerate the poor sail shape and weight aloft that in-mast curlers require. Self furling booms however are reasonably common.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Phoenician

In pursuit of this unicorn, do carbon masts with in-mast furling even exist?

I wouldn't want it. My next boat will have a roachy full batten main.

In-mast furling mains have some profound advantages for those of us who sail in windy places, and a good laminate mainsail with vertical battens gives back a good deal of the performance loss, so it was a tough decision, but the deal breaker for me is the fat mast and huge amount of weight aloft. In pursuit of the light, easily driven boat with little windage and which goes upwind well -- it has to go.

Whether the mast (or mastS) will be carbon or not, I don't know. Carbon masts have a number of disadvantages.

[ReefRaff]

Hi Dockhead,
I've been lazily following this thread and re-read your original (and sensational, mind you) 25-point post of essential qualities of the ideal 60-plus cruiser and I keep on thinking that a fair amount of these qualities, excepting sailing performance I assume, may be found in the some of the dutch-built motorsailers(?) such as those built by Kompier or the De Vries designs. I don't know much about them except I do like their looks and specs and I have read that they are extremely robust, go-anywhere vessels...with a foredeck resembling a trawler housing massive deck gear, safety rails etc. I also hear that they can even accomodate a sceptical landlubber missus... Here is one Kompier currently advertised that may meet most of the essential points... I would be keen to hearyour thoughts on this - https://www.doevemakelaar.nl/en/schi...kotter-49-gsak - I have found zero information on their sailability and performance upwind but their hull does not indicate a good result in this area at least.
Cheers,
ReefRaff