The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

[Pitchondesign]

Originally Posted by Delancey

Two years after launching the "ultimate voyaging yacht" the owners who paid €3M are selling her for half? Hmmmm....

Yachtworld has it listed at $2.4m. Slightly more than half. It must be 3x better than a new Bene 62.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by Phoenician

In pursuit of this unicorn, do carbon masts with in-mast furling even exist?

Sure they do. I have one.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

Schooner Sunshine - Fife designed classic Auxilliary Gaff Schooner
Sunshine is build in steel at a cost of $800k 15 years ago, Lloyds standard, classic yacht quality finish.
I don't know if it is possible today.

I really doubt that she only cost $800k to build. That may be true just for the hull, but including fit out and equipping I seriously doubt it, even 15 years ago that would be an unbelievably cheap price for a +100' yacht. Either way you certainly couldn't build a replacement for $800k, not even close.

She is for sale however, for a pretty reasonable $2m USD.

[Eleuthera 2014]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

....

The Jongert is 32 years old and build in Steel, I don't want to remove rust on a 60 feet boat.

I doubt there is much rust in a Corten steel built yacht.. lesser quality steel perhaps.... but I take your point

[Wckoek]

How do you guys think about this one?
Futuna Yachts - Futuna 70 aluminum sail yacht for blue water ocean cruising and round the world voyage

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

How do you guys think about this one?
Futuna Yachts - Futuna 70 aluminum sail yacht for blue water ocean cruising and round the world voyage

The only time I have sailed on a boat that big was a month of a delivery of a Frers 65. It was a flat bottom boat too with a huge spade rudder. It was definitely fast, but going to weather we got slammed pretty hard and the big spade rudder snapped off. But it was sure nice going downwind and it was really popular at the yacht club.

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by Stumble

I really doubt that she only cost $800k to build. That may be true just for the hull, but including fit out and equipping I seriously doubt it, even 15 years ago that would be an unbelievably cheap price for a +100' yacht. Either way you certainly couldn't build a replacement for $800k, not even close.

She is for sale however, for a pretty reasonable $2m USD.

Burmese slaves who work for less than $200 a month, and hardwood is cheap, you'll never know.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Someone posted a question about what is the best 55' to 65' cruising boat. I thought to post on that thread, but then lost it, and then decided it would be best to start a new one. I have been actually thinking about this question a lot lately, having lived on my 54' boat (about 60' LOA) for the last four months and having sailed her 3000 miles this summer. This gave me plenty of opportunity to reflect on her virtues and shortcomings.


While we’re fantasizing, I actually have a list of qualities I would want on a boat of this class. To my knowledge no boat has ever been made which nearly fulfills them, although this class is crowded with beautiful designs built by Oyster, Contest, Hylas, Discovery, and others. This is based on considerable experience on board my own boat which is nearly in this class – 54 feet on deck, about 60 feet LOA – with all of her plusses and minuses. Here is the list of issues I came up with:

1. Dinghy storage. The plague of cruising boats, I think. I have powered davits which have been extremely troublesome. Plus they look like ****, add windage, etc, etc, etc. This is not the way. If one were designing a 60 to 65 foot yacht, I think a better solution could be found. I don’t like the dinghy garages of Hanses and others, because (a) they occupy an enormous amount of hull volume needed for other purposes; and (b) they require a big fat stern, which I don’t like and don’t think is best for seaworthiness. I think the best compromise for this is probably storage on deck in chocks– on an extended afterdeck with a deck crane. If the boat were designed for this, I think a really good solution could be devised which does not interfere with lazarette or swim platform access.

2. Walk in engine room with workshop. With fully designed rational storage for a full complement of tools, spares, and supplies. Nice workbench with vice. With fully designed installation, giving excellent access, for charger/inverter, fuel polishing, watermaker, central heating, and all the other gear which otherwise gets stuck in inaccessible nooks and crannies.

3. Deck storage adequate for a decent sail inventory, ropes, etc. Modern cruising boats, especially for some reason large cruising boats, don't have any room at all for storage of any extra sails -- this is crazy (result of maximizing living space at the expense of storage and technical space). Life raft locker in the afterdeck like on my boat.

4. A separate space with a couple of pipe cots and a small heads compartment where professional crew could live. This could be combined with (3) in a space between anchor locker and forepeak cabin, as I have seen on some larger Swans.

5. Much more storage below. Storage for linens. Plenty of hanging locker space. Storage for life jackets and safety gear. Galley with plenty of storage for food for a long voyage. Dedicated storage for grab bag and EPIRB. If I started with my own boat as the starting point, I would gladly reduce interior spaces by 20% and rededicate these to storage. For a boat 10 feet longer than mine, I would devote practically all the additional hull volume to storage, increased engine room, etc.

6. Anchor chain storage not in the bows, but lower down and closer to the center of the boat. Like in the Sundeers. Chain runs through a naval pipe. This prevents the bow from being weighed down by the chain like the situation I have now. One question, however – how do you then keep the bilges separate?

7. Deck storage in much larger proportion to what modern boats have. Enough to store bicycles, fenders, and all the other stuff we need on extended cruises. Thinking about my own boat – if there were a separate sail locker forward, and if my lazarette were lengthened by a meter or so (which might happen when the deck storage for dinghy is created), then this would be fulfilled automatically.

8. Watertight bulkheads and separate bilges in forepeak and lazarette. And maybe get all the through hulls out of the main hull volume like the Sundeers have.

9. Well-engineered electrical system. My boat actually has this, very close to ideal. The main engine should have a high capacity, continuous-duty school bus alternator, and there should be a heavy-duty continuous-duty diesel generator – ideally a Northern Lights. All run through a charger-inverter or bank of them with functionality like Victron (but more reliable), and with all components highly accessible and with room for expansion.

10. Nav station not set down in a cave like mine, but on the contrary raised up higher than the salon level so that one can see out over the bow from there and keep a watch from there. The Discovery 55 has this, but it screws up the salon arrangement IMHO – a better solution than this should be found. Plus the Discovery nav station is far too small. On the contrary, we need a full-sized chart table, adequate storage for a large collection of full-sized paper charts, panels for convenient mounting of full complement of instruments, radios, electrical and electronic controls. Panels should be hinged, with latches, not screwed in place like mine, with plenty of space behind them for future modifications to the systems. Dedicated wall space for handheld VHF’s in their own chargers, hand bearing compass, rigging knife, etc., ready to hand.

11. Ground plane for SSB radio bonded into the hull. I think the Sundeers have this.

12. Raised salon with excellent views from the main salon. Opening (!) front-facing windows which allow one standing in the salon to see out over the bow. As in many Oysters. Views from the salon are just extremely important – the designer should spend a few days on some good catamarans for inspiration.

13. Excellent light and ventilation – six or eight large dorades and plenty of hull ports and hatches. Every cabin deserves at least one hull port (my forward cabins have only hatches), and cross-ventilation.

14. Hull form should be oriented to performance with bulb keel and spade rudder or at least partial skeg rudder, but should not be too beamy, and should not have the fat stern which many modern boats now have. I imagine something like my hull, except 10 feet longer, without any increase in beam (I’m 54 feet on deck and 16 foot beam). Should be an easily driven, somewhat narrow, fast shape. Forefoot not too flat to avoid pounding. Should have nice spring to its sheer and a highish bow for a dry deck, but without excessive freeboard midships. Keel should be deep enough for really good upwind performance (about which more below) – up to maybe 2.80. Keel should be lead, and hull should be fully cored with encapsulated balsa blocks and skinned with Twaron or Kevlar, for very, very high strength, impact resistance, and lightness, for performance and strength. I imagine an easily driven hull with D/L ratio of around 200. Structure should be very massive with particular attention paid to chainplates and bulkheads.

15. Rig should be designed for enough performance to allow the cruising sailor to make meaningful progress dead upwind in strong conditions. This for me is now the sine qua non, after sailing 3000 miles this summer, mostly upwind. The boat should not be overcanvassed – SA/D about 16.5 would be about right for the easily driven hull. Maybe a little more if the rig is carbon. The boat should be designed with extra headsail tracks to allow a blade jib (maybe) to be sheeted well inboard. The boat should be capable of at least 5 knots VMG to windward in any conditions from 12 knots to 30 knots true wind, which means it will need to be capable of plenty of boat speed in a wide range of conditions, and will need to have a tacking angle of well under 100 degrees. This is beyond the capabilities of normal cruising boats, but if I ever buy or build another boat, this will be a firm requirement.

16. The rig might be a lot like what I have now. Towable jib cars (but there should be alternative tracks), wide range mainsheet traveler with dedicated winches. End-sheeted boom. In-mast furling, but with electric or hydraulic furling. Eight to ten cockpit winches with at least four powered. Self-tacking staysail but with some way of shaping the sail – multiple clew attachment points, alternative regular sheets or barber haulers, something. Jumper stays so that running backs are not needed in moderate conditions. Chainplates for code zero or furling gennaker. Carbon whisker pole.

17. Getting around the deck safely at sea should be thought through thoroughly. There should be granny bars at the mast. There should be jack stays in positions which allow one to clip on short enough that you can't fall over the side. Side decks should be wide enough to crawl down safely.

18. Much thought should be invested into livability below on long upwind passages on a heel. No smart-ass remarks from cat sailors here -- we know cats are far superior on this particular point. Bunks should all be arranged with long lee cloths. Handholds everywhere. Maybe a gimballed counter in the galley. Maybe a curved seat at the nav station, with cushioned bracing points or foot rests or something. I have never seen a boat where this was really well worked out. A Swan 90 I spent some time on was a disaster. My own boat has superb handhold rails in the salon, and the galley is well designed to allow you to wedge yourself in, but getting to the heads is a disaster.

19. Cockpit should be designed so that sailors can sail, and guests can lounge, without interfering with each other. Not like mine. A Swan-like dual cockpit is ideal for this, but eats up afterdeck space, so would be incompatible with a good dingy storage solution, I guess. So I don’t know how this would be solved, but the designer should work on it. Maybe dual helm stations would help (on my boat, you can’t get around the wheel in the cockpit without walking over the seats).

20. Glass windshield like a Hallberg Rassy, with a windshield wiper. My boat has a plastic one, which is ok, but not as good as glass. With a large spray hood over that creating a place of shelter in the cockpit.

21. Glass counterweighted sinking washboard and glass scuttle. My boat has this and it is fantastic. Adds a significant quantity of natural light in the salon.

22. Steering should be designed to be practically fail-safe, in every regard. Should be actuated by rods, maybe, or a chain, rather than with cables. Redundant hydraulic rams and pumps for autopilot. Massive rudder bearings, that non-binding spherical type (forgot what they’re called). Probably a partial skeg is required for total reliability, despite performance hit compared to spade (have to think about this tradeoff). Easy access to all steering components. Wind vane incorporating backup rudder, with well-designed control mechanism. Designer should write a manual with detailed emergency procedures for various steering problems.

23. Heavy-duty horizontal windlass with warping drum. Massive Samson post. Proper fairleads for shore lines. Massive cleats and plenty of them. All this is contrary to modern practice to make all this gear sleek and cool looking, but usually undersized and poor in operation. The foredeck on my ideal large cruising boat will not be sleek and chic and cool; on the contrary, it will look like the foredeck of a fishing boat.

24. Central hydronic heating system capable of using and storing waste heat from main engine and genset as well as from a hydronic diesel-fuel powered furnace. Central heating system should also have an electrical resistance heating element powered by a separate shore power connection (which can be used for AC too if that is fitted).

25. Chainplates for Jordan drogue.


OK, well, we can dream, can’t we?

I just read the initial post; with the exception of the horizontal windlass, watertight bulkhead doors and anchor well.... you've described our boat. We have all of these things but also the davit system you hate but we like. I completely rebuilt and reinforced the davit deck mount in May so now it's up to the task and overbuilt.

Why don't you just buy an Oyster and make a few custom changes? Or spec a new build with these customizations.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I just read the initial post; with the exception of the horizontal windlass, watertight bulkhead doors and anchor well.... you've described our boat. We have all of these things but also the davit system you hate but we like. I completely rebuilt and reinforced the davit deck mount in May so now it's up to the task and overbuilt.

Why don't you just buy an Oyster and make a few custom changes? Or spec a new build with these customizations.

Well, I was looking intensively at Oysters (for more than a year) when I bought my present boat 8 years ago. I even looked at your exact boat.

I love them, but my taste and needs have evolved since then. The Oyster 53 is extremely similar to my Moody 54 and has almost all of the same drawbacks. Two big advantages over my boat -- much nicer fitout and cabinetry, and little lower deck which allows real opening forward facing salon windows. But for me a fairly big drawback that it's heavier and slower than my boat. Same lack of deck storage; even smaller engine room than mine. And maybe the main thing the new boat needs to have is a real pilothouse. Oysters don't even have windshields, so are even less suitable for high latitudes than my boat is (but perfect for warm sunny places of course).


Since I posted my dream qualities of a new boat in this thread, one big thing has changed for me -- namely the question of dinghy storage. At the time I was wrestling with awful electric davits and a heavy wheel-steered dinghy which could not be handled any other way, making me completely dependent on the awful Cooney-Simpson electric davits which were constantly breaking down. Dingy handling/storage was such a big problem, such a constant problem, actually the bane of my cruising life, that this issue was a main driving force behind my ideas for the next boat.

Since that time, I got rid of the old davits and the old heavy dinghy, and switched to an Avon Lite folding RIB and light manual davits, and it has really changed my life. In 3000 miles of cruising this summer, I actually never even used the davits even once -- so easy it is to haul the folding RIB onto the foredeck and fold it up. So now I don't think I will let the boat design be driven by dinghy storage.

[TJ D]

I'll tell you, I really love the garage. If I was building my dream boat, I'd undoubtedly keep it. RS's garage is very narrow, only 36 inches, so we have to deflate the RIB to slide it in, and only a few models have hulls narrow enough to fit (we currently have a zodiac cadet 300).

But, even with measurements of 3' x 1.4' x 11', we fit the RIB, an inflatable kayak, a rigid SUP, and the passarelle in there. I don't need to tell you that having NO gear on deck is an absolute good.

Maybe have a look at narrowing the garage? It doesn't really take up that much of a bite out of the interior. We have a little 110v inflator that we use off the inverter, it's a 5 minute job to pull the dink out and blow it up.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TJ D

I'll tell you, I really love the garage. If I was building my dream boat, I'd undoubtedly keep it. RS's garage is very narrow, only 36 inches, so we have to deflate the RIB to slide it in, and only a few models have hulls narrow enough to fit (we currently have a zodiac cadet 300).

But, even with measurements of 3' x 1.4' x 11', we fit the RIB, an inflatable kayak, a rigid SUP, and the passarelle in there. I don't need to tell you that having NO gear on deck is an absolute good.

Maybe have a look at narrowing the garage? It doesn't really take up that much of a bite out of the interior. We have a little 110v inflator that we use off the inverter, it's a 5 minute job to pull the dink out and blow it up.

I was not going to necessarily delete the dinghy garage! It's just that folding the dinghy greatly increases the options.

Yes, I think a dingy garage like yours which can take a deflated RIB is ideal. The idea of light, empty ends is fundamental, and that goes well with this.

Does your RIB have a folding transom, or not? The folding transom on my Avon Lite is what makes it store so well, but with a dinghy garage maybe you don't even need that -- just deflate the tubes.

How do you pull your dinghy out? Does it go straight into the water, deflated, or do you have some kind of platform?


Incidentally, this also ties into the discussion of appropriate D/L ratios and comfort. Someone said that a longer boat of equal mass might actually be LESS comfortable. But we didn't factor in polar moment of inertia -- determined by lightness of the bow and stern sections. This will greatly reduce pitching. I think a boat with a say 57' waterline and weighing in at about 20 -- 22 metric tons light ship should be MORE comfortable than my Moody IF it is empty bow and stern, with the anchor chain midships a la Sundeer and a big empty space aft. That would give me D/L of less than 150 and that boat should fly with modest sail area and little effort. That's what I'm looking for. The motion will be different, of course, and might be "twitchier". But I think it should be fine -- I am completely happy with the motion of my Moody (other than rolling), although she does pound a bit in short period seas. I would not give up the chance of an extra turn of speed, just to improve on motion which is already quite acceptable. I don't need for the boat to be as fast as Rocket Science, but I want passage speeds of a knot more than what I'm getting now.

Concerning motion -- I'm actually more concerned with ROLLING. That's yet another reason to give up the in-mast furling main. My Moody rolls badly at anchor, and I really hate that, and rolls a lot downwind in light air. It comes from all that weight aloft from the massive telephone pole mast with all that mechanism inside, which to make matters even worse is extra tall.

[Dockhead]

Oh, and the dinghy on the foredeck is also not a problem -- with the folding transom, it's almost like a surf board when it's in its bag. It's not in the way, doesn't catch lines, doesn't create windage. I guess the garage is best of all and still Plan A, but if I'm willing to continue using folding transom RIBs (and unfortunately the Avon ones aren't made any more), then if you have a nest on the foredeck, this is trivial.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, I was looking intensively at Oysters (for more than a year) when I bought my present boat 8 years ago. I even looked at your exact boat.

I love them, but my taste and needs have evolved since then. The Oyster 53 is extremely similar to my Moody 54 and has almost all of the same drawbacks. Two big advantages over my boat -- much nicer fitout and cabinetry, and little lower deck which allows real opening forward facing salon windows. But for me a fairly big drawback that it's heavier and slower than my boat. Same lack of deck storage; even smaller engine room than mine. And maybe the main thing the new boat needs to have is a real pilothouse. Oysters don't even have windshields, so are even less suitable for high latitudes than my boat is (but perfect for warm sunny places of course).


Since I posted my dream qualities of a new boat in this thread, one big thing has changed for me -- namely the question of dinghy storage. At the time I was wrestling with awful electric davits and a heavy wheel-steered dinghy which could not be handled any other way, making me completely dependent on the awful Cooney-Simpson electric davits which were constantly breaking down. Dingy handling/storage was such a big problem, such a constant problem, actually the bane of my cruising life, that this issue was a main driving force behind my ideas for the next boat.

Since that time, I got rid of the old davits and the old heavy dinghy, and switched to an Avon Lite folding RIB and light manual davits, and it has really changed my life. In 3000 miles of cruising this summer, I actually never even used the davits even once -- so easy it is to haul the folding RIB onto the foredeck and fold it up. So now I don't think I will let the boat design be driven by dinghy storage.

One significant difference if I'm not mistaken would be the Oyster 53 being a deep draft keel at 7ft 4 inches vs the Moody 54 being shoal draft at 5ft 10 inches. How does this help your boat on a windward tack? It would seem to work against windward performance.

Also, we do have a complete shop with all around engine and genset access. You must have missed it.

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I was not going to necessarily delete the dinghy garage! It's just that folding the dinghy greatly increases the options.

Yes, I think a dingy garage like yours which can take a deflated RIB is ideal. The idea of light, empty ends is fundamental, and that goes well with this.

Does your RIB have a folding transom, or not? The folding transom on my Avon Lite is what makes it store so well, but with a dinghy garage maybe you don't even need that -- just deflate the tubes.

How do you pull your dinghy out? Does it go straight into the water, deflated, or do you have some kind of platform?


Incidentally, this also ties into the discussion of appropriate D/L ratios and comfort. Someone said that a longer boat of equal mass might actually be LESS comfortable. But we didn't factor in polar moment of inertia -- determined by lightness of the bow and stern sections. This will greatly reduce pitching. I think a boat with a say 57' waterline and weighing in at about 20 -- 22 metric tons light ship should be MORE comfortable than my Moody IF it is empty bow and stern, with the anchor chain midships a la Sundeer and a big empty space aft. That would give me D/L of less than 150 and that boat should fly with modest sail area and little effort. That's what I'm looking for. The motion will be different, of course, and might be "twitchier". But I think it should be fine -- I am completely happy with the motion of my Moody (other than rolling), although she does pound a bit in short period seas. I would not give up the chance of an extra turn of speed, just to improve on motion which is already quite acceptable. I don't need for the boat to be as fast as Rocket Science, but I want passage speeds of a knot more than what I'm getting now.

Concerning motion -- I'm actually more concerned with ROLLING. That's yet another reason to give up the in-mast furling main. My Moody rolls badly at anchor, and I really hate that, and rolls a lot downwind in light air. It comes from all that weight aloft from the massive telephone pole mast with all that mechanism inside, which to make matters even worse is extra tall.

Regarding the dink, it's a folding transom Zodiac Cadet 300, hypalon. We just bought it, so the jury's out on it, but it seems to be well put together.
In our case, the folding transom isn't really that relevant. The garage widens out where the transom sits. The old Aquapro didn't have a folding transom, and all was fine, but I'm not sure if we could have got the SUP in with that one.

I'm attaching a pic of the garage. The boat is supported by the transom until it's almost fully inflated, we don't need to float anything until there's some air in it.

This isn't going to be a popular view around these parts, but i would go with the lowest D/L that you can achieve while staying on budget.

You might recall, the D/L on RS is 72.

Now, while I was shopping for a faster boat, RS sort of dropped into my lap. I would not have chosen to go this light if I were in the position to design one.

The reason for this is that I didn't know any better. Now that I have the great good fortune to sail a boat like this, I'm completely convinced that a low D/L is only a good thing, IF the design is done properly.

There was a huge amount of thought that went into how to make this ultralight livable for a cruising sailor.

If you go to our website, there's a 'technical details' tab which is mostly a write-up the Bill Lee did on the boat, and it discusses hull shape, weight distribution, foils, CG, and just about everything else in tremendous detail. Have a read and I'll be happy to share our real-world impressions.

There's a lot to talk about here, and I'd prefer not to get into an eye-crossing ramble suitable only for the most hopeless of design geeks!

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Concerning motion -- I'm actually more concerned with ROLLING. That's yet another reason to give up the in-mast furling main. My Moody rolls badly at anchor, and I really hate that, and rolls a lot downwind in light air. It comes from all that weight aloft from the massive telephone pole mast with all that mechanism inside, which to make matters even worse is extra tall.

Have you ever thought about using structual furlers? On this boat, or the next. Since your jibs are either fully rolled up, or completely unfurled. That, or a Dux based furler which uses soft shackles for hanks. You'd save a good bit of weight aloft. Which would probably help with the rolling thing.