Thoughts on ketches and yawls

[MicHughV]

genia ???...what's dat ????

[ewsponberg]

Nice thread. I wrote an article called "The Deketchification of America" for Professional Boatbuilder magazine back in April/May 2013, issue #145. It's my take on the design situation of ketches--or lack thereof, coining a new word in the process. Here is a link to the article: https://www.ericwsponberg.com/wp-con...ca-PBB-142.pdf.

Enjoy!

[MicHughV]

I don't care who, why, or what.....but I'd pick a ketch any day of the week.

The above articles is correct...boat designers/builders go for most bang of the buck these days to cater to cruiser wannabee's. Boats are equipped with a/c....usually two units, microwaves, spring cushions for sleeping on..two heads is almost mandatory....every electronic device known to mankind festoons the helm and nav station area....generator, off course...furling sails...natch....solar panels, dingy davits, twin helms autopilot, etc, etc....at the end of this long list comes the rig off course...

a new boat almost always comes with only two sails...main and jib......both furling off course, storm sails forgetaboutit...spinnakers...ha ha ha...none to be seen...

I might be old school...but I know what I like...

[merrydolphin]

As a US Sailing Cruising instructor, I have been asked many times this by students. Only it’s usually: sloop, cutter or ketch (or yawl).
My answer is: I have owned and extensively sailed all three, the one I preferred was……the one that I had! I liked them all. They all worked as designed. Never have had much experience on a Yawl. Again. It’s down to the old and dependable truism that “everything is a trade-off”. I loved my Cal 2-46 center cockpit ketch.
My Kelly Peterson Cutter and my SandS sloop, my Tartan Sloop etc. they all worked well. I never wanted to change or modify them. They worked as designed.
Enjoy what you have.

[ramron67]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

genia ???...what's dat ????

Genoa, presumably...

[MicHughV]

I was just thinking about this....ketch vs. sloop....rigging costs...

True, the ketch has two masts, but these are generally a smaller size than the single mast of a sloop of the same size, and obviously not as a tall.
Same goes for boom sizes, rigging wire sizes, etc...

While I haven't done a cost comparison...between a ketch rig and a sloop rig on the same size boat, I'm pretty sure that the cost difference is likely not much.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

While I haven't done a cost comparison...between a ketch rig and a sloop rig on the same size boat, I'm pretty sure that the cost difference is likely not much.

I think you might be surprised at the increase;
Two masts, two booms, additional spreaders and their attachments, now start adding-up the standing and running rigging, winches, cleats, reefing gear, etc.
Not to mention the increases in structural work required for a boat with more than one mast, and the mast steps themselves.
Price out some turnbuckles and chainplates, and swedge fittings.
Most of the price in a sail is the material and labor needed for the corner reinforcements and reefing points,, adding a few feet to luff/leech/foot is not that much, it's all the corner work, and on a two masted boat it's doubled.

[bailsout]

Of course the increased costs are not so much if you do the labor. Not that I really enjoyed going up the mizzen today to sand for varnish tomorrow.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

I was just thinking about this....ketch vs. sloop....rigging costs...

True, the ketch has two masts, but these are generally a smaller size than the single mast of a sloop of the same size, and obviously not as a tall.
Same goes for boom sizes, rigging wire sizes, etc...

While I haven't done a cost comparison...between a ketch rig and a sloop rig on the same size boat, I'm pretty sure that the cost difference is likely not much.

Having rerigged my Ketch. Its like doing 2 boats. 40 footer + a 20 footer. 14 stays in all. Its not twice the cost but it adds up. Reregging my ketch cost me $6k including a furler and me doing all the work! A suit of sails cost me $11k. But the benefit is that individually (except the genoa) the sails are silightly smaller and easier to handle so the winches and blocks arrangements can be slightly smaller. but it defintly costs a fair bit more, but you get versatility out of the rig that you don't get with a sloop...

but it is a pain every fall and spring to have to go up the mizzen to deal with the triatic stay in order to step/unstep the masts!

[s/v Jedi]

No words needed

[ramron67]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

No words needed

Nice!

Here is an old school version...

[jtsailjt]

I really like the look of both the yawl and ketch rigs but other than the ability to have a riding sail at anchor and the ability to increase sail area while having a shorter main mast, and to fly an aft downwind sail (very infrequent), they don’t seem very worthwhile given all the extra hardware that’s required. In very strong winds I think you’re much better off with a triple reefed main and a staysail than you are with similar sail area at the opposite ends of your vessel while running under jib and jigger. Your highly reefed jib will have terrible sail shape with a high center of effort and if your 3rd reef (or roller furling main) is deep you can have just as small a sail area up as you could using a mizzen. I’m sure it works fine off the wind but I think the same thing can be accomplished and with better windward performance, by using a staysail and deeply reefed main. But there have been times in rolly anchorages when I thought a riding sail would be a nice thing to have. For me, I really like the simplicity of just one mast with a furling main, jib, and staysail. But I do enjoy looking at ketches and yawls and if I had a great desire to do the whole inland waterway, I’d probably have one, but I’d still want to have at least a detachable inner forestay for those times when I’d otherwise be tempted to use my jib more than about 30% reefed.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I really like the look of both the yawl and ketch rigs but other than the ability to have a riding sail at anchor and the ability to increase sail area while having a shorter main mast, and to fly an aft downwind sail (very infrequent), they don’t seem very worthwhile given all the extra hardware that’s required. In very strong winds I think you’re much better off with a triple reefed main and a staysail than you are with similar sail area at the opposite ends of your vessel while running under jib and jigger. Your highly reefed jib will have terrible sail shape with a high center of effort and if your 3rd reef (or roller furling main) is deep you can have just as small a sail area up as you could using a mizzen. I’m sure it works fine off the wind but I think the same thing can be accomplished and with better windward performance, by using a staysail and deeply reefed main. But there have been times in rolly anchorages when I thought a riding sail would be a nice thing to have. For me, I really like the simplicity of just one mast with a furling main, jib, and staysail. But I do enjoy looking at ketches and yawls and if I had a great desire to do the whole inland waterway, I’d probably have one, but I’d still want to have at least a detachable inner forestay for those times when I’d otherwise be tempted to use my jib more than about 30% reefed.

We have 3rd reefs in both main and mizzen. The jib is a 95% radial cut high aspect that is good up to 20-25kts wind. When we drop mizzen and jib, we can tack upwind on just the main in perfect balance. Or do the same with mizzen and jib.
When it’s windy, we normally drop the main and continue through the night comfortably on mizzen and jib, doing 7 kts boat speed while it feels like we entered a marina when the main comes down.
Yes, more rigging.

[MicHughV]

this probably has nothing to do with sailing...but my first boat was a ketch....

one feature I came to really appreciate, was that I could drape an awning over the mizzen boom to provide shade for the aft cabin....in addition, I fabricated two " mini" windscoops "ears" that fitted over the aft cabin forward portholes, one each side, the wide end being lashed to the lifelines.

the awning and windscoops made the aft cabin the coolest area on the boat.

If it rained, I could keep the aft hatch open as it, and the windscoop "ears" were covered by the awning.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

We have 3rd reefs in both main and mizzen. The jib is a 95% radial cut high aspect that is good up to 20-25kts wind. When we drop mizzen and jib, we can tack upwind on just the main in perfect balance. Or do the same with mizzen and jib.

When it’s windy, we normally drop the main and continue through the night comfortably on mizzen and jib, doing 7 kts boat speed while it feels like we entered a marina when the main comes down.

Yes, more rigging.

The ability to sail upwind on main alone is a very nice feature but not too many boats do that very well so I’d say you’re pretty fortunate in that respect. Reducing sail area and keeping it low does allow you to sail comfortably in high winds, as you say like you entered a marina. A mizzen allows that but so does a 3rd reefed mainsail. A staysail provides the same amount of sail area as a severely reefed jib but with better shape for sailing to windward and located lower and closer to the center of the boat. Jib and jigger sounds like it works great for you but wouldn’t a staysail and deeply reefed mainsail work at least as well and probably a little better because it would yield the same amount of balanced sail area but with a slightly lower center of effort. I can see where it would be more convenient to completely lower the main in strong winds and be done with it so that’s an advantage but it just seems to me that a staysail combined with a deeply reefed main yields better sailing characteristics than does jib and jigger if that means using a drastically reefed jib to get the sail area down to what’s needed in very strong winds.