Thoughts on ketches and yawls

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by sanibel sailor

When Sir Alec Rose in Lively Lady circumnavigated in the 60's, he kept the mizzen mast, but removed the mizzen sail and boom, using only the mizzen staysail.

Likely for the wind vane to function ?

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Likely for the wind vane to function ?

Seems a reasonable assumption RKJ had a side mounted outrigger design for this windvanes (Suhali is also a ketch) which ultimately was a failed design for him and he threw it in the ocean. Still a Ketch is one of the prettiest rigs after the Schooner, and yawl.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

The ability to sail upwind on main alone is a very nice feature but not too many boats do that very well so I’d say you’re pretty fortunate in that respect. Reducing sail area and keeping it low does allow you to sail comfortably in high winds, as you say like you entered a marina. A mizzen allows that but so does a 3rd reefed mainsail. A staysail provides the same amount of sail area as a severely reefed jib but with better shape for sailing to windward and located lower and closer to the center of the boat. Jib and jigger sounds like it works great for you but wouldn’t a staysail and deeply reefed mainsail work at least as well and probably a little better because it would yield the same amount of balanced sail area but with a slightly lower center of effort. I can see where it would be more convenient to completely lower the main in strong winds and be done with it so that’s an advantage but it just seems to me that a staysail combined with a deeply reefed main yields better sailing characteristics than does jib and jigger if that means using a drastically reefed jib to get the sail area down to what’s needed in very strong winds.

We have a cutter stay and staysail as well. While testing it we found it doesn’t really work at anything less than 25kts wind. It does balance with double reefed main and mizzen; I haven’t tried it with just the mizzen.

I truly believe the ketch rig is a much better choice for cruising, even with the added rigging and cost… but (and here comes the catch) I believe it only starts making sense for boats 50’ and up.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

We have a cutter stay and staysail as well. While testing it we found it doesn’t really work at anything less than 25kts wind. It does balance with double reefed main and mizzen; I haven’t tried it with just the mizzen.



I truly believe the ketch rig is a much better choice for cruising, even with the added rigging and cost… but (and here comes the catch) I believe it only starts making sense for boats 50’ and up.

Your 25 knot transition to your staysail sounds like a perfect complement to a jib that works well in winds less than that but poorly in winds 25 knots and above.

I’ve never owned a boat more than 50’ LOA and neither have most members of this forum so I’ll have got take your word for it. I really have nothing against ketches or yawls, but after so many mentions of sailing under jib and jigger as if this was something special, wanted to just point out that a staysail allows a similar, balanced reduction in sail area with just one mast. That’s all.

But I do think you make a very valid point regarding bigger boats unless they have a furling mainsail of some sort. A good friend of mine owns a 59’ center cockpit sloop with a traditionally reefed mainsail and lazy jacks with a stack pack. I’m 6’1” and he’s shorter and it’s quite a time consuming task for me to climb up the mast far enough to cram that sail into the stack pack and zip it closed. I think he’d be better off with either a ketch or a furling mainsail because as boat and mainsail size increases it becomes much more difficult to deal with the distances and forces involved with a rig that size.

[bailsout]

L. Francis Herreshoff designed many successful ketch designs under way under 50’. And my H-28 modified ketch is a joy to sail under all combinations and conditions.

[LakeSuperior]

Non-sailing friends are curious about the mizzen on my yawl when I occasionally take them out to day sail. My stock response is that it's for decoration. I also let them know that I need it when I want to waterski.

As mentioned numerous times above it provides nice boat balance when the winds are up and the main is into the second or third reef.

One big advantage of the yawl over a ketch is the mizzen mast is not constantly blocking sight lines from the helm. Additionally, in the ketches I've sailed, the mast and boom seem to take up a fair amount of cockpit space.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by bailsout

L. Francis Herreshoff designed many successful ketch designs under way under 50’. And my H-28 modified ketch is a joy to sail under all combinations and conditions.

Yes, I should have been more specific, let me rephrase it:

For modern designs, a ketch only starts making sense at 50’ and up because for smaller boats a cutter beats them at every point of sail without giving up anything on sail combinations and comfort.

This is mostly because smaller boats can’t create enough physical distance between both masts so that the mizzen is just a trim tab for the main instead of a sail contributing to main and jib surface area.

Speed wise it’s near impossible to beat a sloop. That said, ketches 50’ and up will beat sloops at broad reaching even before setting their secret weapon, the mizzen spinnaker. Our boat is a broad reaching machine but a 55-57’ sloop will beat us beating to windward even when 8-9’ shorter boat length.

Of course it’s not just about speed, but under 50’ a cutter covers all the bases without it’s sails becoming too big to handle in comfort for cruising.

In the pictures: check distance between masts and the size of the mizzen compared to main. The other picture shows the secret weapon

(This is the 78’ Beowulf)

[ramron67]

Originally Posted by bailsout

L. Francis Herreshoff designed many successful ketch designs under way under 50’. And my H-28 modified ketch is a joy to sail under all combinations and conditions.

The H-28, either rigged as a sloop or a ketch, is a beautiful boat!

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

For modern designs, a ketch only starts making sense at 50’ and up

hmmm . . . mixed feelings about this comment . . . . .

on the one hand our first RTW was on a 37' ketch and it was a wonderful boat, including the rig . . .

but on the other hand if by 'makes sense' you are really focused on performance per sail area then ofc you are right - in fact, I think there is an argument to be made that a modern cat sloop (eg just large optimized main with no jib, like the c-class) makes the most 'sense'.

The ketch was super easy to balance and super easy to heavy to super easy to set just the right amount of light air reachers and pretty and gave you a lot of hand grips when moving around and various other actual 'benefits'. Its only real sailing disadvantage was less pointing in a certain wind range (which probably had as much to do with its keel design - somewhat ineffecient centerboard - as the rig).

But yes, when we built a boat specifically to go places where we would need to do a lot of upwind work . . we built a fractional sloop.

net net I personally would not discourage someone from a ketch, even a 'smallish' one, just want them to understand the various trade-offs and compromises.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

hmmm . . . mixed feelings about this comment . . . . .

on the one hand our first RTW was on a 37' ketch and it was a wonderful boat, including the rig . . .

but on the other hand if by 'makes sense' you are really focused on performance per sail area then ofc you are right - in fact, I think there is an argument to be made that a modern cat sloop (eg just large optimized main with no jib, like the c-class) makes the most 'sense'.

The ketch was super easy to balance and super easy to heavy to super easy to set just the right amount of light air reachers and pretty and gave you a lot of hand grips when moving around and various other actual 'benefits'. Its only real sailing disadvantage was less pointing in a certain wind range (which probably had as much to do with its keel design - somewhat ineffecient centerboard - as the rig).

But yes, when we built a boat specifically to go places where we would need to do a lot of upwind work . . we built a fractional sloop.

net net I personally would not discourage someone from a ketch, even a 'smallish' one, just want them to understand the various trade-offs and compromises.

I agree with you that a 37’ ketch can do all that… but a 37’ cutter can do all that with much less rigging and while being faster as well. So it’s not just the speed, it’s having more speed in addition to everything a 37’ ketch offers.

[RonAcierno]

So I rarely post, but this conversation is near to heart. I've owned many of these different types of boats, and more importantly, I sail them when I have them every week at a minimum, so I speak from a point of experience.

Sloops:
catalina 25, catalina 250, catalina 320, najad 38 (and various others)

Yawls:
nimble 20 (sharpie hull), nimble 24 (sharpie hull), nimble 30 (centerboard keel stub)
Block Island 40 (centerboard modified full keel, current boat)

Ketch:
Cheoy Lee 33

Cutter:
Cabo Rico 38

I can say with some experience that nothing, NOTHING beats a yawl for single handed work or longer distance work, with a ketch coming close. The split rig allows one to sail jib and jigger in 40knots when everyone else has to go home. and the mizzen, albeit small, is set way aft. this means it can balance the larger jib (i mean the 130, not the drifter) quite well (an earlier poster commented that the tiny mizzen might not be up to balancing the jib...its position does allow it to do so). As i'm older and my twin rotator cuff surgeries mandate less acrobatics, so for this, the split rig is a godsend...but the real blessing is that I never miss a planned sail due to high wind days, because I, and more importantly, my junior crew, feel pretty confident in any weather. She's balanced without being overpowered under jib and jigger in a way that even a ketch cannot achieve. I rarely set my autopilot once balanced, and admittedly the keel helps with that...

[ramron67]

Originally Posted by RonAcierno

...I've owned many of these different types of boats, and more importantly, I sail them when I have them every week at a minimum, so I speak from a point of experience.

Sloops:
catalina 25, catalina 250, catalina 320, najad 38 (and various others)

Yawls:
nimble 20 (sharpie hull), nimble 24 (sharpie hull), nimble 30 (centerboard keel stub)
Block Island 40 (centerboard modified full keel, current boat)

Ketch:
Cheoy Lee 33

Cutter:
Cabo Rico 38

...

That is an impressive selection of sailboats!
(I hope to be able to say that about myself at some point in the future...)

[RonAcierno]

its an unfortunate affliction called equity line + lack of impulse control

[ramron67]

Originally Posted by RonAcierno

its an unfortunate affliction called equity line + lack of impulse control

My wife is my impulse control…

[sailingabe41ds]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

I don't care who, why, or what.....but I'd pick a ketch any day of the week.

The above articles is correct...boat designers/builders go for most bang of the buck these days to cater to cruiser wannabee's. Boats are equipped with a/c....usually two units, microwaves, spring cushions for sleeping on..two heads is almost mandatory....every electronic device known to mankind festoons the helm and nav station area....generator, off course...furling sails...natch....solar panels, dingy davits, twin helms autopilot, etc, etc....at the end of this long list comes the rig off course...

a new boat almost always comes with only two sails...main and jib......both furling off course, storm sails forgetaboutit...spinnakers...ha ha ha...none to be seen...

I might be old school...but I know what I like...

Sad to say, I fit that description. I am a coastal sailor and anchorage destinations on the islands are anywhere from 11 to 25 miles from my home base. I am too lazy to put up a spinnaker .. so its the main and the jib and off I go.
Coming home usually the winds are behind me, but by that time I am tired and just want to get home.
Perhaps when I am retired,, spend more time sailing, and have more time on my hands my sailing style might change.
Oh....did I mentioned I have a wife

Abe