Thoughts on this Van de Stadt 34?

[Marathon1150]

A couple of things in addition to all of the good advice and comments above.

We owned a 1/3 share of a Van de Stadt 34 when we lived in Jakarta, Indonesia. It was GRP built in Sri Lanka, possibly before it was clear just how strong GRP is because the boat was seriously overbuilt. Nonetheless, it sailed just fine for our first boat. All three owners, including me, managed to put her up on a reef (charts for the cruising grounds were mostly 100 year old Dutch charts which we augmented with satellite images - one of the owners was an oil geologist and this was in pre GE days), but it was still look and see sailing. Banging into reefs managed to knock the bottom paint off but that was pretty much it. The boat could probably have been used as an ice breaker given its strength and weight.

I have always thought it would be interesting to own a metal boat but have only considered aluminum for all of the reasons noted by previous posters. I can imagine that steel is only slightly less time and money consuming than wood for hull material. I prefer to spend time sailing rather than maintaining but recognize that no matter what a boat is made of, maintenance time is always extensive.

I would worry a lot about that engine if I were offshore. Our Van de Stadt had a Yanmar but it was still hard to find parts for that engine in Indonesia. Subsequent boats have had Yanmars, Perkins and Volvos. The boat with a Perkins is in French Polynesia and I have my fingers crossed that we will not need any Perkins specific parts beyond belts and filters for that boat because they will be hard to find. Our other boat has a Volvo Penta, parts for which are easy to find but very expensive.

Lastly, I suggest that you charter a few boats to better understand what you like and don't like about various designs. Its much cheaper and easier to do that than to buy the wrong boat.

Good luck, I'm sure that the boat for you is out there somewhere.

[roverhi]

The boat looks to be in very good condition after 5 years on the hard. The exterior paint is poor but what you'd expect for a boat exposed to the elements. The real test is the condition of the hull on the inside. Steel boats rust out from the inside out. If the bilges were dry and/or freshwater is the only water inside the boat it could be in very good condition. Only a careful inspection anywhere you can see the hull will tell the tale.

Steel is heavy and smaller boats pay a price with a greater part of the boats displacement in the hull plating. Still steel construction doesn't mean the boat will be a dog. From the underbody design she should sail reasonably well in all conditions but may be a bit tender as keel weight may be less because of the steel plating. On ocean passages you will be a lot happier in a dry boat with no water dripping on your berth which a steel boat offers. A faster boat that leaks can be a cruise ender and I haven't owned a glass boat that doesn't have some leak that can't be cured except with a large injection of money. She may not plane like a Pogo but should do reasonably well in the trades. We cruised on a W32 which is notorious for being slow but typically made faster passages than other boats with longer water lines.

The telling point will be the condition of the hull and you'll have to dig into the boat to determine that. FWIW Steel boats require religious attention to rust prevention. They are not low maintenance boats. Then again, a steel boat in good condition is about the safest boat you can own, floating containers be damned.

[Marutji]

Originally Posted by adjo

As a retired marine surveyor and having owned a steel boat for may years I can confirm that Hendrik is correct and that a lot of what has been said here is simply misinformation. There is a lot of uninformed prejudice and bias about so be careful who you listen to.

The Van de Stadt 34 is a good design that sails well and (assuming it is correctly built) it will resist impact damage that would destroy most GRP boats. Most of us have gone aground from time to time (and especially when learning). Steel is very forgiving.

A well-built and well-painted steel boat can last for a long, long time if maintained correctly. I have inspected 40 year old steel boats that had no rust whatsoever and never had. The whole idea that maintenance on a steel boat is unending is a myth but it is true that you have to be careful to avoid letting any paint damage go unattended as rust can creep under good paint once it gets started. Cleanliness and good ventilation is the basic maintenance that is needed and these make on board living more pleasant anyway.

Steel boats do tend to rust from the inside so look in all the most inaccessible places (under motor/toilet/shower/bilge/anchor locker etc) using a powerful torch and mirror if needed. Particularly look for uneven layers of paint and explore these gently with a scraper. If there is any fresh paint over rust this is a very bad sign. At the very minimum all rust should be passivated (preferably removed completely) prior to over-coating.

Modern paints are excellent and if used correctly they are tough and very resistant to damage. It looks to me as if the undercoat/primer may be zinc rich epoxy which can cause blistering below the waterline externally.

This boat looks really good despite the cosmetics.

The idea that you cannot have a good steel cruising yacht under 12m is absolute rubbish. Obviously if it's built out of 6mm plate it will be too heavy to perform well but if it was built and rigged to Van de Stadt's specifications it will sail well. I do not know the builder so cannot comment.

As the author of the book in question, I would just like to agree with the above. Van de Stadt do not design boats that do not sail well (if the builders stick to the original scantlings, which is not always the case and is where the bad rep comes from).

I would also like to point out the the takeaway point of the chapter "Getting Real about Steel" in my book is that, for the price of an old FG boat, you can often get a relatively new steel boat with far less problems.

The example I gave was of my own boat Marutji (pictured on the cover of the book) - a VDS 34 in steel. I paid 50k (Australian dollars) for her when she was only a couple of years in the water and had three very good years sailing her with little maintenance.

At no point did I ever recommend that a new sailor should buy an old steel boat in need of work. Sorry for the confusion - I will certainly make sure I re-state that in my next book (out this spring, if you will excuse the blatant marketing).

If you would like to contact me, just google "sailing calypso" and that will take you straight to my website.

Fair Winds everybody! Failing a zombie apocalypse, 2021 is going to be a lot better!

Rick Page

[Fore and Aft]

Rick you are right about there being some bargains to be had regarding steel yacht's. My only issue with steel boats is that for the average person there is no way around paying big dollars for sand blasting and getting steel professionally welded. At least with a fibreglass boat you can tackle most issues yourself without expensive equipment.
That Vanderstadt could be a good buy, they really need a survey to determine if she is worth touching. At the same time they need to be the there with the surveyor getting a lesson in what to look for.
Cheers

[Marutji]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Rick you are right about there being some bargains to be had regarding steel yacht's. My only issue with steel boats is that for the average person there is no way around paying big dollars for sand blasting and getting steel professionally welded. At least with a fibreglass boat you can tackle most issues yourself without expensive equipment.
That Vanderstadt could be a good buy, they really need a survey to determine if she is worth touching. At the same time they need to be the there with the surveyor getting a lesson in what to look for.
Cheers

I hear what you are saying and agree. But this was not the point I made above (or made in my book). The point I make in the book is that as it is often possible to buy a nearly new steel boat for the price of a 30 year old FG boat, the advantages of having everything else on the boat (rudder bearings, engine, gearbox, mast, boom, rigging, chain, winches, windlasses, anchors, electrics etc) in near new condition, can seriously outweigh any advantages that FG offers. If one then opts to buy an old steel boat, then those advantages are lost.

Cheers,

Rick

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Marutji

I hear what you are saying and agree. But this was not the point I made above (or made in my book). The point I make in the book is that as it is often possible to buy a nearly new steel boat for the price of a 30 year old FG boat, the advantages of having everything else on the boat (rudder bearings, engine, gearbox, mast, boom, rigging, chain, winches, windlasses, anchors, electrics etc) in near new condition, can seriously outweigh any advantages that FG offers. If one then opts to buy an old steel boat, then those advantages are lost.

Cheers,

Rick

The above sounds good when you say it fast, but does not seem supported by reality... at least in this part of the world.

First, there are very few steel boats around relative to FG, and even fewer near new ones that are for sale... like zero.

Second, the only likely reason that a near new boat of any construction would be for sale is that it has some issues... not a great purchase incentive to me.

Third, elderly FG boats have become REALLY cheap in most venues, and finding a "near new" steelie at such a price just seems unlikely.

In short, your hypothesis seems far fetched to this sailor!

Jim

[double u]

Van de Stadt is a dutch design firm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._G._van_de_Stadt), I seem to remember these (80ies) designs were by Cees van Tongeren & very modern for their times (frameless, plans for the hull-panel-outlines,...) & fast for the type of boat they were designed to be. The Dutch have a long tradition of designing & building in metal, & while we have seen quite a few metal (mostly steel)-abominations down under, The Netherlands have quite a number of really good looking, reasonably fast steel (& aluminium) boats.
Still: as first boat a steel boat...not sure I'd recommend it...

[double u]

btw: many a cruising mile has been sailed in vdS designs, many. & numerous rtw.
(could it be some of you haven't heard of vdS designs? Hide away in shame!)

[adjo]

There's a fair bit of comment hear about how heavy steel is it's true that it's four times heavier (it's impossible to be more precise as the density of GRP is extremely variable).

So, if you build a hull using 3mm (~1/8") steel it would be about the same weight as the same hull in 12mm (~1/2") GRP.

But in boat design things are never as simple as that. Weight below the waterline can be useful and a strong steel keel welded to (a suitably reinforced) steel hull can resist impact that would sheer off or significantly damage the internal structure of a GRP one. I've inspected many GRP boats that have suffered such damage. I've known of some that have sunk.

Many years ago in NZ my steel yacht fell forward off a slipway cradle dropping onto its stem from about 2m (~6'). Damage? Localised paint damage to the boat, a significant gouge in the concrete, the handle broken off a cup that fell in the sink and a dent in my pride.

About 100 miles off the mouth of the Amazon we sailed past a log that was significantly bigger than our boat. Scary.

Ocean cruising is not all about speed. The feeling of security that a well built metal hull gives is worth quite a bit.

I've delivered quite a few modern GRP boats (Beneteaus, Bavarias etc ) and find it unnerving how the boats shudder when pounding to windward. Yes, these are relatively light and sail well to windward but I find myself slowing down for comfort. It must be acknowledged that this is largely a function of modern yacht design and GRP can withstand a huge amount of flexure (as can steel).

[NedX]

Lorine and Oliver,

Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on the biggest hurdle: You both want to do this. Lots of couples never get that consensus. Lord knows I've been through some.

A couple of terms used here so you don't have to google

FRP = fibre-reinforced plastic

GRP = glass-reinforced plastic

[TMI for now: A GRP uses fibers, so it is an FRP. However, there are FRPs that are not GRPs, such as carbon-reinforced polymers, for example, which do not use glass.]

FG = fiberglass.

OP = Cruiser Forum-speak for the original post/original poster.

Also, notice that the conversation is going to be often broken down among people who've sailed them, people who've built them, people who've surveyed them, and people who have other reasons to have opinions.

The value of this forum is that nearly everyone has something useful, some resource, some experience, so I'm reconfirming that you're doing a good thing to come here EVEN IF reading this thread you see every possible opinion about that boat in particular and that kind of boat in general.

The best possible advice, of course, is to get a surveyor to see it before you buy. Depending on where you are, people here on this forum might be able to recommend someone.

The second-best possible advice is that the age and the price and the fact that the seller says it will need work suggests that the discounted price of 15,000 Euro added to in in cash that you will pay contractors, or in labor by you (if you want to learn how to repair boats). There's a recent thread about a cruiser who completely rebuilt her steel boat. You can see everything she's done. It'll give you an idea of the kinds of projects that might pop up.

I second the concern about that relatively rare auxiliary (boat speak for engine). Finding parts is one of those things you don't realize is going to be a problem until you can't find that particular part. Replacing them is wicked expensive. Same deal with the rigging and sails: Tired sails are sails that can fail you at the worst possible time.

Those are things that don't immediately occur to you when you see a listing and it says "there are sails and an engine that work."

Best of luck, and keep us posted!

[Lthw]

Hello everyone,

Just a note to thank you all for your contributions. We’re quite overwhelmed by the responses; they have given us a lot to think about.

TrentePieds, thanks for the Marine Survey 101 link - great resource.

A few comments on the emergent themes:

Steel vs GRP

We would do well to clarify that we have targeted the Van de Stadt 34 based on the favorable review in “Get Real, Get Gone” coupled with, what is for us at least, as inexperienced sailors, a convincing argument for steel. Basically, we’re not looking to reinvent the wheel. Whilst we might be able to appreciate the relative handling characteristics, layout etc. by trying out a range of boats, we cannot really pretend to know what we need. We'd rather do targeted research based on a model recommendation. That being said, what models could people recommend for a good starter bluewater boat in GRP between 30 and 40 foot and budget circa 30kEUR (plus 15kEUR contingency)? Preference for an ample fin keel and skeg-hung rudder. I suspect this already needs another thread. We looked at the Bayfield 32 and “Twenty small sailboats to take you anywhere” (John Vigor) but these appear overwhelmingly to be models more common in the US. For reference, we’re in Paris/Lille (for now).

Rust

As many of you pointed out, we note that it is critical to establish whether there is rust on the inside of the hull. This was covered in “Get Real, Get Gone” with a specific mention of the importance/challanges of gaining access to the hull internally (thanks, Rick).

Engine

Based on our relatively limited research, we had not come across this manufacturer so definitely take note that this is unfavorable regarding spares/maintenance.

Best wishes,
Oliver and Laurine

[SV DINGO]

I have bought a VDS 40 Caribbean in steel for a number of reasons and so far i admit that i only met one sailing couple , but they were very experienced , that share my liking for steel so the comments here only reflect what i have received in real life. Yes maintenance is there but osmosis is also there , i can relatevely easy fix a hole in any island village in the Pacific myself and get to a bigger port where i just grind it off and get it pro fixed. The VDS sails very well close to the wind , i made about 80 nm a day. One point i have to say is that she has a very long Fin keel and i draw 2.1 m and that has put some limitations on me where i can and can not go. I am happy with my decission but i do not argue or critisise others for making a different decission. Good luck.

[MicHughV]

I built my own steel boat, launched it 40 years ago....it is still around and still in good shape...but I took extraordinary care to insure it had a long life....

As other have pointed out, problems on a steel boat invariable start on the inside.......this being your first boat, I'd highly recommended a good surveyor with experience with steel boats give this boat a good look over.

The Dutch are known for their steel boats, so this good. Van de Stadt is a well known designer, but I don't know who built this boat. Don't worry too much about performance...this boat will get you where you want....but get it surveyed.....
15,000 EU is about $18,500.....that is a pretty good price for a 34 footer....if it passes survey !!

[double u]

you being in France (& possibly French?) puts a whole new aspect to your boatsearch. You are in THE cruising nation of the world, with the longest (& imho most interesting & relevant) "cruising culture" bar none!!! Just wander around the marinas, talk to boatowners (there used to be many french steelboats on the bluewter-rtw circuit), get hold of two books in the "Hors Serie" of the - sadly now defunct magazine "Loisirs nautiques": first: La Plaisance Francaise a la decouverte de ses architects" & in the same series the one about "Construction Aluminium" by Caroff. Try to get hold of old issues of the Loisirs nautiques magazine, imho the very best one by far if you are delving into cruising boat design. (In my time I gobbled up everything available about the subject in German, English & French & we bought 2 boats in France - if you are "francophone" - that's where to look!). If in the market for a steel boat look to Holland & maybe Germany (attention: the Krauts are ugliness-champions when it comes to metal boats!).

[MicHughV]

yeah, I wrote a book about how (and why) I built my steel boat, a Roberts 38, send me a private message if you are interested...and I will direct you to where you can find it...