Thru-hull tip for recent-ish Hanse owners

[ohthetrees]

A couple of my factory ball-valves (used in place of proper sea-cocks) were in dangerously poor condition. The head ball valve broke in my hands, I could crumble the metal with my fingers. I decided to replace every under-waterline thru-hull with Tru Design skin-fittings, ball-valves, and reinforcing collars. These are fiber-reinforced polymer, and are very strong and will never corrode. With the reinforcing collars, they are pretty much just as solid as a real bronze sea-cock with flanges. I've had them in for 6-months, and I love them, and expect them to last a very long time. I prefer these to $300/piece high-end bronze. And they are cheap!

Here is the hot tip. The existing skin fittings, at least on my 2015 505 were already tru-design! For some reason they put really crappy (brass?) ball-valves on them. That means it would be very easy to simply unscrew the crappy ball-valves, add a tru-design reinforcing collar and ball-valve. I wish I had known this factoid earlier. I ended up grinding all these (unknown to me) perfectly good tru-design skin fittings out, and re-bedding new ones. They didn't have any branding on them, and I just didn't know. Only after the project was completely finished did I learn that Hanse uses Tru-Design skin fittings from the factory. God only knows why they don't use the tru-design ball-valves from the factory. Maybe even cheaper than the already cheap tru-design valves?

Anyone who has the least suspicion about their valves, I highly recommend the upgrade, and if you don't have to replace all the skin fittings like dumb-ol-me, it isn't a hard job.

[BillKny]

Originally Posted by ohthetrees

A couple of my factory ball-valves (used in place of proper sea-cocks) were in dangerously poor condition. The head ball valve broke in my hands, I could crumble the metal with my fingers. I decided to replace every under-waterline thru-hull with Tru Design skin-fittings, ball-valves, and reinforcing collars. These are fiber-reinforced polymer, and are very strong and will never corrode. With the reinforcing collars, they are pretty much just as solid as a real bronze sea-cock with flanges. I've had them in for 6-months, and I love them, and expect them to last a very long time. I prefer these to $300/piece high-end bronze. And they are cheap!

Here is the hot tip. The existing skin fittings, at least on my 2015 505 were already tru-design! For some reason they put really crappy (brass?) ball-valves on them. That means it would be very easy to simply unscrew the crappy ball-valves, add a tru-design reinforcing collar and ball-valve. I wish I had known this factoid earlier. I ended up grinding all these (unknown to me) perfectly good tru-design skin fittings out, and re-bedding new ones. They didn't have any branding on them, and I just didn't know. Only after the project was completely finished did I learn that Hanse uses Tru-Design skin fittings from the factory. God only knows why they don't use the tru-design ball-valves from the factory. Maybe even cheaper than the already cheap tru-design valves?

Anyone who has the least suspicion about their valves, I highly recommend the upgrade, and if you don't have to replace all the skin fittings like dumb-ol-me, it isn't a hard job.

This is a truly bad situation, completely made by dumb EU regulations. In a perfectly reasonable sounding rule, thruhull fittings are required to be "corrosion resistant" which in another part of the regulations is defined as suitable for its designed service for at least five years!

Because of this foolishness most of the "mass market" EU boat builders have switched to valves made of crap brass, and as long as they can claim with a straight face they will last for at least 5 years, they can claim they are fully compliant with certification standards.

See here for more info from a guy who has been trying to call attention to this scandal for some time:

http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Paul%...20Seacocks.pdf

Ironically, in the USA where there is no specific government regulations, unless you go out of your way looking for something cheap, you can't buy these crap valves, you can only find proper bronze.

Hanse, and several other boat builders (big names all!) should be truly embarrassed by their ability to hide behind dumb rules to save a very few bucks per boat.

[ohthetrees]

I completely agree. I’m sure they saved a lot of money compared to a bunch of high-quality bronze fittings. But they can’t have saved much money compared to these tru design ones, which in my opinion are the best of both worlds, cheap, and good. I suspect that they have decided that an uneducated buyer might discount tru design as “cheap plastic“ and not know the metal ones they installed, looking shiny and new, are crap. So they chose what looks good rather than what is good. I’ve mostly been pretty happy with the build quality of my Hanse, but certainly not in this department.

[Desert Spray]

We second the OP’s concern for Hanse through-hull fittings and the endorsement of Tru-Design products. Our Hanse-built 2009 Moody 45 DS developed issues with her ball valves, including two seized valves found by my surveyor. The surveyor judged the quality of the valves to be substandard. Evidently the valves had also not been “exercised” regularly by the prior owner. All of the bronze through-hull skin fittings and valves replaced with Tru-Design units in 2018. They are excellent quality and operate flawlessly.

[molly1]

I have experienced the same thing with my Beneteau Oceanis 55 but even worse if possible. The yacht came with bronze skin fittings, brass seacocks and then they put on copper tails. I only realised when one crumbled after being knocked by me. Luckily I close them all when not sailing. My yacht is 6 years old.
The Australian dealer did not want to discuss the issue. I am replacing them all over the next month.
The other point worth noting is that the surveyor did not pick this up in my pre purchase inspection 2 years ago.

[PeroniPete]

I had the same 505 as you, bought it new at the factory in 2015. The sea cocks were so stiff to operate it felt like something was about to snap every time you leaned on them.
However, that was the least of our problems...
4 years of trying to operate the Autopilot, many, many Technicians looked at it, only to finally discover after we sold the boat that a vital component (processor) was just not installed by the factory. Yep, that's right, they just forgot about it. We heard of other boats, a 575, out in the middle of the Atlantic with the same problem, frantically trying to resolve their same issues. The chap who bought our boat was lucky enough to know someone inside of B & G who finally sorted it out.
Even that issue was just one of a myriad of issues....One of the fuel tanks had to be removed when the boat was 6 months old due to diesel leaking into the bilge. After removing the floor panels, we could see the bottom of the hull littered with rubbish, cigarette butts, and just plain dirty. I think that's a bit of an indicator right there....
Suffice to say we won't be going down that road (creek without a paddle) again..!

[BillKny]

Any Group Beneuteau boat (Beneteau, Jeanneau, Lagoon, Excess...) should be assumed to have this issue with seacocks unless you can know for sure your boat is different.

They are taking advantage of buyers who trust that such a well known brand would do the right thing, or maybe they just don't know what the right thing is???

If you are buying one of these boats used, be SURE your surveyor understands the issue and explicitly looks for it. Don't let him write it off with weasel words. If he doesn't know how to be sure the valves are the right material, then get another surveyor.

If you are buying one new, be sure this issue is addressed to your total satisfaction BEFORE you take delivery. Educate yourself, and insist they do it right.

[ohthetrees]

Originally Posted by Desert Spray

We second the OP’s concern for Hanse through-hull fittings and the endorsement of Tru-Design products. Our Hanse-built 2009 Moody 45 DS developed issues with her ball valves, including two seized valves found by my surveyor. The surveyor judged the quality of the valves to be substandard. Evidently the valves had also not been “exercised” regularly by the prior owner. All of the bronze through-hull skin fittings and valves replaced with Tru-Design units in 2018. They are excellent quality and operate flawlessly.

And cheap compared to Bronze!

[ohthetrees]

Originally Posted by PeroniPete

I had the same 505 as you, bought it new at the factory in 2015. The sea cocks were so stiff to operate it felt like something was about to snap every time you leaned on them.
However, that was the least of our problems...
4 years of trying to operate the Autopilot, many, many Technicians looked at it, only to finally discover after we sold the boat that a vital component (processor) was just not installed by the factory. Yep, that's right, they just forgot about it. We heard of other boats, a 575, out in the middle of the Atlantic with the same problem, frantically trying to resolve their same issues. The chap who bought our boat was lucky enough to know someone inside of B & G who finally sorted it out.
Even that issue was just one of a myriad of issues....One of the fuel tanks had to be removed when the boat was 6 months old due to diesel leaking into the bilge. After removing the floor panels, we could see the bottom of the hull littered with rubbish, cigarette butts, and just plain dirty. I think that's a bit of an indicator right there....
Suffice to say we won't be going down that road (creek without a paddle) again..!

Luckily we haven’t had any other major complaints. Maybe that the factory autopilot (Jeffa DD1) was undersized. We replaced with a DD2 and have been happy. We’ve only owned our 505 for a year, but we’ve put 5000nm on it, and are very happy overall, and feel it was an excellent value. I mean, I’m not saying I prefer it to a Southerly, Amel, or Oyster, but for the money, it is a lot of boat. Maybe the previous owner sorted out all the factory mistakes before it got to me.

[mitiempo]

In North America the standards are voluntary regarding thru hulls and valves or seacocks - ABYC. Builders are concerned about their reputation so most use good if not great valves, seacocks, etc.

In Europe the standards demand that seacocks last 5 years. Most probably do. But there is not any incentive to use a quality product that lasts decades, at least for many builders. After all, why waste money for an item most buyers don't even notice when buying a boat.

My boat was built in Canada. The standards were pretty lax when it was built. The through hulls are ok. The valves need replacing, not from corrosion but because some are gate valves. They will be replaces with TruDesign thru hulls, collars and valves when I haul out in the spring.

Thru hulls are original as are some valves - the gate valves. Some of these have been replaced by ball valves in the past.

My boat is 44 years old.

About time some builders cared more about their reputation than building to the minimal standards required by the EU.

[BobMillington]

I have a 2014 Beneteau Sense recently replaced all below waterline thru hulls with Bronze valves in San Diego. Like others I was was worried about the crap that is installed in the factory. Such a piece of mind having quality installed.

Interesting to note, that my buddy just bought a new Beneteau 41 in the last 6 months and it was delivered with Groco Bronze thru hulls. I was surprised when we were crawling around to look at everything. I’m thinking someone at Beneteau is listening! I guess time will tell.

[MikeCondor]

Great post thanks. In our 2019 Hanse 388, all original factory seacocks are stamped CW602N & EN12420, which seems to be the dezincification resistant brass, do I assume good marks to Hanse. Not sure if New Zealand regs affect fittings in boats delivered here.

[philcun50]

2016 Beneteau Oceanis 45, after head/holding tank seacock non metallic from new. Forward head seacock seized and replaced. Engine cooling sea water via sail drive seized at same time. Shipwright convinced me to bypass sail drive and put in another through hull. Soon after discovered water in saildrive oil. Suspicion is that without cooling water flowing through leg the temperature of the leg is higher which increases the pressure in the leg while operating. Due to greater expansion of the leg oil which forces air and oil out of the leg. After engine is shut down oil contracts thus lowering the pressure in the leg which draws in air or seawater via the weakest point. In my case this was seawater. I know of a few boats that the leg has been bypassed but I suspect their success is only due to them being race boats and only motor for 15/20 minutes to race and so don’t heat their leg. I found Truedesign valves at a local boat shop and returned the cooling system to oringinal. I did this with the boat in the water. Got about the same amount of water in as I get when cleaning the boat speed/depth sounder transducer.
The Yanmar SD60 saildrive has a habit of pushing oil out of the filler cap when operating. I now aim for the lowest mark on the dip stick rather than the top mark when filling the saildrive thus allowing more air space for oil expansion.
Another good idea I’ve heard of is get another filler cap drill a hole in it and somehow fit a small header tank to it giving the leg even more expansion area.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by MikeCondor

Great post thanks. In our 2019 Hanse 388, all original factory seacocks are stamped CW602N & EN12420, which seems to be the dezincification resistant brass, do I assume good marks to Hanse. Not sure if New Zealand regs affect fittings in boats delivered here.

CW602N has 35% to 37% and should not be used for thru hulls in salt water. It has approximately the same amount of zinc as manganese bronze which is the common choice for propellers. As everybody knows they need anodic protection or they can be destroyed in short order.
https://www.holmedodsworth.com/asset...ZR%20Brass.pdf

No, not good marks for Hanse.

I am not sure of the composition of the EN12420.

For comparison Groco thru hulls and seacocks are made with 85-5-5-5 bronze. If has 5% zinc and should last decades in salt water.

[dhenline]

Since I am somewhat new to this. If I understand this correctly, Hanse (a boat I am considering) uses a high quality through hull but a low quality valve on the inside which corrodes in about five years>. the only good news is it is easy to exchange out. My question would be could someone just have these done , exchanged out, before taking delivery? Or perhaps at the fist haul out.
Can it be changed in the water? probably pretty tricky