To Tartan or not to Tartan

[robert sailor]

We owned a Tartan 44 and sailed it thousands of miles offshore through the South Pacific and North Pacific, like all Tartans it had a well designed bolt on keel and a proper keel stub unlike the cheaper high production boats that simply bolt the keel directly on the flat bottomed hulls. Like all boats no matter the keel design the boats need proper maintenance but because the Tartan is a stick built boat and not a liner boat it’s quite easy to properly inspect the interior floor supports and the exterior for past damage. The Scheel keel is a decent design for shallow draft boats and allows a wide base to install bolts. It will cut your windward performance by at least 5 degrees so a much better cruiser than racer. It does allow you to get into skinny waters. Tartans are well designed and well built but your buying the past owners as much as the boat. If it was carefully looked after and upgraded you might have found a real winner but get a real good surveyor who is knowledgeable with the breed. Good luck with your shopping!

[Orion Jim]

Regardless of the type of keel keep in mind you are looking at a boat built in 89. Constant maintenance and regular updating/upgrading will be the key issues. Take no ones word for anything. If a claim cannot be backed up with documentation it is worthless banter. An overdue refit of the existing systems would be outrageously expensive. Sails, standing/running rigging, engine/transmission, wiring, breaker panels, pumps, hoses, water/diesel tanks, galley stoves, heads……all require testing and a thorough review. It is imperative that you hire a competent surveyor…some are…..some are not. The original purchase price of a boat in it’s thirties is just the start if it has not been cared for properly.

[Snore]

Let’s start with it is a TARTAN, not a lesser brand. There are many 40+ year old Tartans out there sailing all sorts of places.

I admit I am admittedly biased. But my advice is always the same to any older boat buyer- “You buy original build quality and everything that was done/happened to her since then.”

The Tartans are all very well built. My suggestion is to join the Facebook group or tartanownerslist@groups.io. The Tartan owners are an amiable group, those of us who owner the older girls work together to keep them going strong.

[maine50]

The Tartan 40 was designed by Sparkman & Stevens who were conservative
designers. I have a Tartan 43 (1974 build) (Think early 70's Tartan 41 with traditional Transom). I have one of the few centerboard versions with 11000
lb keel with a centerboard within. Did a Atlantic circle in 2017/2018. when it was 45 yrs old. Yes get it surveyed but you're ahead of the game as it was designed by S & S and build by Tartan.

[malbert73]

I own a Tartan 40. Awesome boat in every regard. I seriously doubt the earlier poster who knew of a T40 losing its keel. The keel stub goes pretty deep and is wide, and the keel is like 8-10 long and only 3 feet deep below keel stub. There are more than 10 well spaced keel bolts.
We’ve owned ours for 7 seasons and have cruised nearly 8000 miles. Very easily driven, and seakindly and stiff. The compromises are in the interior which seems small compared to modern 40 footers but is very liveable. It has great storage and very good quality workmanship

[Sailmonkey]

[QUOTE=Cap Morgan;3488605]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Stu,



I must admit that my understanding of this is based on my boat shopping experience and related articles when I do research. Are there any manufacturers producing encapsulated keels anymore, especially with lead?

The only current manufacturer that comes to mind with an encapsulated keel is island packet. Not even in the same ballpark where performance comes in…..this is coming from a guy who owns a 45 year old encapsulated boat, our next will be bolt on.

[CarlF]

I've owned boats with bolt on keels and boats with encapsulated keels. Neither caused problems. Keel type would be about #58 on my criteria list when buying a 30 year old sailboat.

#1 is how good was the builder (Tartan is well above average)
#2 is how well has it been maintained by the PO's

Don't have too many "required" items on your list that you read about on the internet - or you will end up compromising on #1 and #2. Any boat that's still floating after 30 years has passed the basic tests...

But all 30 year old boats will have issues -- some of which will be missed in the survey. Budget spending $25K+ during the first 12 months of ownership to make it the boat you and your wife will love.

When buying boats - "The perfect is the enemy of the good"

[caffel]

As you my hove found out by now a lot of strong designs have keel bolts in addition to the external fiberglass.
And juts where would you attach the lightning ground straps if you didn't have those bolts ?

[Symphony]

I previously sailed a 1986 tartan 34-2 and a 1999 tartan 4100 all around the eastern seaboard.
I checked the torque on the keelboats in my initial survey. I never thought about them again. The Scheel Keel is a genius design.
As it stated in the above posts, Tartans are stick built which means you can get to repairing anything on the boat with less surgery than required on liner boats.

Not only do Tartans look beautiful and sail well, a clean Tartan is very easy to sell. Both of mine sold almost immediately.

[Captain Anthony]

1980 Tartan 37 owner here. Buy the boat and go sailing. Tartans are the preverbal Brick ---- House! In fact invite me for a sail, I would love to go!. If you have ANY question in your mind about the structural integrity of the keel, bolts, when the boat is on the hard, replace the keel bolts. Factor 75% of that cost into your offer. If you replace the keel bolts you know that it was done correctly and there should be no issues while you are in custody of the boat.
Fair winds and following seas

[Stewie12]

If keel bolts are pulled and inspected regularly and if you hit something, bolted on keels allow you better performance into the wind,. The is nothing wrong with them as they make the boat preform better. See what the surveyor says as I am sure we would all like to know the outcome.

[Kd9truck]

If you plan on hitting a lot of stuff underwater with your vessel you should definitely stay away from fin keels.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by DDabs

I'd care more about the hull being balsa cored than the keel being bolted on, just me tho.

That being said- I am a huge fan of Tartan's and I think the Tartan 40 is a great cruising sailboat

I believe the core is limited to above the waterline, which is a good compromise for performance and safety

[zstine]

Torquing the keel bolts exceeds their operational loading by many, many times. So, If you can torque them to spec and they do not fail, then you should be good to go....
Email below From Tartan...



"Keelbolt Torque 6/21/02

Good morning [all]. It appears the [folks here] have been busy coming up with
questions regarding our keel installations which have been surfacing
ever since I've been monitoring the list. I hope the following will answer
some of your questions:

Tartan uses a "Live" joint to mate the keel to the hull.

A live joint is a joint that is able to flex during thermal expansion and
contraction as well as accommodate movement in the structure while
normally loaded as well as those occasional abnormal loads (grounding).

This installation has been in use since the early 1960's with great success.
One of the great advantages of this installation is that tightening the
keel bolts will not promote water intrusion.

We use a two-part THIOKOL adhesive sealant between the keel to hull
joint which creates a permanent gasket. As you know, gaskets
are used elsewhere on your boat such as on the engine water pump.

Tightening the bolts on gasketed seals does not promote leaks as long
as the bolts are evenly torqued.

Keel bolts should be torqued to the following specifications:
1" bolts should be maintained at 350 ft/lbs
3/4" bolts at 250 ft/lbs and
1/2" bolts at 180 ft lbs.

Tartan no longer covers up the keel to hull joint with glass tape for cosmetic
purposes. For the last several years we have been leaving the seam
exposed and faired with a THIOKOL bead to eliminate the maintenance
issues with glass tape. Some other manufacturers install their
keels with an epoxy joint. We don't find this to be reliable since
the lead will expand and contract at a different rate than the
fiberglass. If the bolts become loose the joint will fail and there is no
chance of tightening up the bolts to eliminate a leak. A sudden
impact can also jar the joint enough to break the bond.

There you have it. I hope I answered all the keel joint questions.
George Gulden"

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Kd9truck

If you plan on hitting a lot of stuff underwater with your vessel you should definitely stay away from fin keels.

At last some real advice and as you point out hitting stuff underwater will be a disaster for a fin. Just watch this from 5 minutes onwards to see the result.

Pete

Dehler Yacht Crash