To Tartan or not to Tartan

[wallandj]

We owned a 92 Tartan 37-2 with a bolted on Scheel keel for 15 years. Read zstine’s comment which includes a description by the manufacturer of the “live joint”. I removed the glass tape over the joint as it continually loosened and cracked. After that, I inspected the joint annually and on the 2-3 times I observed a small separation I immediately cleaned out the area and “spackled” it with 5200. Had the bolts torqued once but no looseness was noted. Beyond that we never had any issues with the keel.

[Cap Morgan]

[QUOTE=JimsCAL;3489601]

Originally Posted by nortonscove

??????? You do understand that encapsulated is NOT bolt on right?

I certainly do JimCAL. Thanks for checking. The purpose for my OP was that I've been searching for a boat with an encapsulated keel but keep coming up with boats that are bolted on keels. I therefore drew the conclusion that most "newer" boats have bolted on keels. Based on a great deal of reading that I've done it seems that quite a few folks out there have only bad things to say about bolted keels. However, the responses that I've received for my post have been tremendous in educating me as to the realities of bolted keels. Seems more to do with who built the boat, the design (i.e. load spreading over keel to hull joint), and of course individual boat's maintenance. I'm now quite comfortable going the bolted keel route

[Snore]

[QUOTE=Cap Morgan;3493686]

Originally Posted by JimsCAL

I certainly do JimCAL. Thanks for checking. The purpose for my OP was that I've been searching for a boat with an encapsulated keel but keep coming up with boats that are bolted on keels. I therefore drew the conclusion that most "newer" boats have bolted on keels. Based on a great deal of reading that I've done it seems that quite a few folks out there have only bad things to say about bolted keels. However, the responses that I've received for my post have been tremendous in educating me as to the realities of bolted keels. Seems more to do with who built the boat, the design (i.e. load spreading over keel to hull joint), and of course individual boat's maintenance. I'm now quite comfortable going the bolted keel route

With all respects- a Tartan is built better than most other boats out there. If a Hunter or Bene has an issue with the bolt on keel, that is one thing.

Ask Tartan guys! And check the failure rate of Tartan keels.

[Sofa King Fishy]

This keel argument is internet tripe. Would you sail on a Halberg Rassey? How about a Swan? Be careful with that Swan- it also has a Spade rudder! Boo!

[Happ]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

There's nothing inherently wrong with a bolt on keel. There's no reason the bolted joint can't be engineered to be stronger than the surrounding hull. The issues are when the joint is under-speced, or you have a skinny, short (lengthwise along the hull) keel without a lot of joint area. Or if the keel is bolted to the hull without the hull being adequately reinforced to spread the loads. Then you end up with a situation where you can either snap the keel off or rip the keel mounting out of the hull.



But if the joint is of adequate size, has appropriate structure above it to spread the load, the bolts are in good condition, etc. then it shouldn't be a weak point at all.

Allow me to help everyone with a true experience I had. First let me say the US cruising waters beg for keels 5’. Thus shorter keels. A bolt on keel allows a manufacturer to build one hull and offer several keel options.

On to my experience. I was the Captain of a race boat in the Midwest. On our first offshore race we were in a storm blowing 35 to 50. One of the crew reported water under the floorboards. Upon inspection the keel boss was moving under the weight of the keel prying the 2 halves of the hull apart. We immediately shorten sail to take the heel out of the boat thus the lateral load off the keel boss. Once arriving at port it was clear the boat was done until the boat was repaired. I’m talking with the owner and 2 things came out. First the boat had a design flaw in the first 12 hulls. The keel bolts were in placed in the same place as some of the stringers. Since the keels were already manufactured the builder drilled holes in the stringers deep enough to get a nut on the keel bolts. They devised a special wrench much like what you use to change a tire. This weakened the support for the keel. All 12 keels failed and the manufacturer fixed all the boats under warranty. This was hull 14 so the keel bolts were in the right spot. The problem was the owner had previously left the boat along a sea wall at his club. There was a large tree with roots that came away from the wall under water. A storm had come up and the surge caused the boat to bounce up and down on the tree root. The owner just had the yard slap some glass over where keel boss separated from the keel. Unfortunately under race conditions this was not an adequate fix. I had the hull/keel repaired at a yard that understood the problem and knew how to fix it correctly.

It is rare that keels just fall off. An America’s Cup boat lost a keel and the boat sunk. The reason was either it was designed to light or it was a manufacturing defect. When you consider the 100,000 + boats that have been built I would not hesitate in buying a boat with a bolt on keel.

[jipcho]

Hi Capt. Morgan
I agree with what has been said so far about bolted keels. I went looking for sailboat in New Zealand back in 2002. I had experience with steel and fiberglass vessels, and was always warned to stay away from wooden boats, mostly because of the extra work involved. I ended up buying a cold molded wooden cruiser/racer from the commodore of the Royal New Zealand Yacht Club. Prior to purchase, while checking this beauty at the dock, I met several Kiwis who told me they had raced against my boat (Jipcho). One told me that she had hit bottom once, and lost her keel! I was alarmed, of course. During the survey, the surveyor showed me the robust bronze bolts and nuts which held the lead fin keel to the hull. The nuts were quite tight, and he didn't see any evidence of previous damage. I sailed her around the world over the next 15 years, ran aground and hit hard coral heads several times over the years. No issues. I was able to tighten the keel bolts ever so slightly now and then while on the hard, but that's it.

Sailors warn others against all sorts of things. The various myths and misunderstandings around things like keel bolts being dangerous, or wood boats being a hassle, often keep people away from making a decision that could lead to a lifetime of adventure, enjoyment, and hard work. Go with your gut. If the surveyor sees no problem, don't look for one.
Fair winds!

[Manateeman]

Tartan made a strong boat. I don’t like bolt on keels because some builders do not strengthen the hull sufficiently and some owners ignore loose or corroded bolts or cracks. This isn’t often the case with the Tartans I have seen.
If you hit something hard, you need to examine the joint. If you buy a used boat, you need to examine everything inside and outside because paint hides stuff.
While working for company X I believe we used the first joint band set in epoxy in the industry. Didn’t work well. You don’t want to cover the joint because cracking shows you something is moving. How much and why is the question. I don’t believe putting water in the bilge and looking for a leak is an adequate test. I’ve never seen lightning exit an encapsulated keel and blow a hole out the side.
I think Thiokol is difficult to work with and I’m not impressed with the adhesion.
3M 5200 is more than enough fun. I’ll pass on flexible epoxy bands.
Tartans were well made boats. Should you do a careful survey. Yes. Same as any used boat. No one except Superman has x-Ray eyes. Short of dropping the keel, there is no 100% guarantee everything is just like new. In fact, dropping the keel might cause big problems.
You want an icebreaker, go steel. You want to see ice bears, go aluminum. You want to sleep nights, get a good survey. Takes time. Costs money.
Tartans were built well. Enjoy.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his manatee crew of professional boatbuilders.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Cap Morgan

Pete,

Truly appreciate your candor! I’m aware that practically all new boats have encapsulated keels or centerboard keels. I’ll keep an open mind for sure. Will need to read a few more of these replies before I make a decision. Frankly, I feel that this is the boat and plan on having it surveyed anyway. Of course the survey here in Miami is pricey $1700 plus $500 for the haulout so it’s a bit of a gamble.

Thanks again!

Sorry Cap Morgan, that is not correct. Practically all new boats have BOLT ON keels and have had for a few decades. Very few if any, boats are now built with fully encapsulated keels.

There are a few boats built with centerboards or lifting keels, but the vast majority are simple, strong, and effective bolt on keels.

"bolt on keels can and do drop off".

Yes, it has happened, and when it does it makes the headlines. But, considering the numbers of boats built, it is extremely rare. You would need to perform some basic maintenance to be able to monitor the keel bolts. On my boat, with a deep fin, I removed the keel and had the bolts checked. They were fine.

[rslifkin]

Thinking about it, a family friend smacked their 37 or 38 foot Tartan (can't remember year and model) into a rock at 6-7 kts. Insurance totaled the boat. Keel stayed attached just fine, but the hit at the bottom of the keel put enough leverage on the hull to pull the keel down a bit at the front and damaged the hull significantly. I'd expect many boats to suffer significant damage in that situation unless they're an unbelievably heavy build. Encapsulated vs bolt on will likely show different damage, but either one is likely to be heading for a haul out after that.

[Manateeman]

I worked at a large OEM builder who produced a lot of bolt on keel boats. The boats were lightly constructed hulls. They called them racer/ cruisers but in fact it was speed that made them popular. I’ve seen a lot of these boats push the aft end of the keel up into the boat but I’ve never seen the forward end destroy the hull alone. I guess if you sort of fell off a wave and hit a rock on the bottom forward section of the keel, it could happen. I’ve seen side forces crack half the hull on one side and the keel remained attached but floppy.
Tartan made a strong hull. With modern computer stress analysis, designers can save weight but a good solid hull gives you a pretty good safety factor if well built. I think Tartans have sufficient hull strength in this critical area.
Obviously not all new boats have bolt on keels. One one end of the no bolt on keel spectrum you can have thin light boards designed to fail before damaging the hull and at the other end, welded aluminum tanks like mine, that would give a whale a headache.
Every bolt on keel can have problems or might never have them. The hull that Tartan built is strong and if the hull has no damage, the bolts good and the seal is tight, the OP will have a fine vessel. So. Again...
Happy trails to you.
Mark and the manatee crew.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

I worked at a large OEM builder who produced a lot of bolt on keel boats. The boats were lightly constructed hulls. They called them racer/ cruisers but in fact it was speed that made them popular. I’ve seen a lot of these boats push the aft end of the keel up into the boat but I’ve never seen the forward end destroy the hull alone. I guess if you sort of fell off a wave and hit a rock on the bottom forward section of the keel, it could happen. I’ve seen side forces crack half the hull on one side and the keel remained attached but floppy.
Tartan made a strong hull. With modern computer stress analysis, designers can save weight but a good solid hull gives you a pretty good safety factor if well built. I think Tartans have sufficient hull strength in this critical area.
Obviously not all new boats have bolt on keels. One one end of the no bolt on keel spectrum you can have thin light boards designed to fail before damaging the hull and at the other end, welded aluminum tanks like mine, that would give a whale a headache.
Every bolt on keel can have problems or might never have them. The hull that Tartan built is strong and if the hull has no damage, the bolts good and the seal is tight, the OP will have a fine vessel. So. Again...
Happy trails to you.
Mark and the manatee crew.

In the case of the damage I described, I know it was one heck of a hit (hence my comment that pretty much any basic design would have had some kind of concerning damage). I didn't ever get to see the damage in person, so I only have the description I was given of what it looked like (and I know they went straight in for emergency haulout as they were taking on water). It's quite likely things were pushed up at the back of the keel.

[raahell]

[QUOTE=Cap Morgan;3493686]

Originally Posted by JimsCAL

Based on a great deal of reading that I've done it seems that quite a few folks out there have only bad things to say about bolted keels. However, the responses that I've received for my post have been tremendous in educating me as to the realities of bolted keels. Seems more to do with who built the boat, the design (i.e. load spreading over keel to hull joint), and of course individual boat's maintenance. I'm now quite comfortable going the bolted keel route

It looks like you've had a bit of an education. That's the great thing about this forum.

Now that you're comfortable with bolt-on keels, do take a moment to understand that not all bolt-on keels are created equal. Others have indicated that the design, engineering and production inconsistencies vary from make to make, so it's good to check on the owners forums when researching various boat types.

I'm surprised, however, that nobody has mentioned material selection. I believe Tartan has done the right thing by using a lead keel and stainless steel bolts. Not all manufacturers did that, however. Many keels are cast iron (cheaper) with threaded-in SS (or even carbon steel!) bolts. Problem here is that steel and cast iron react to each other and furthermore in the oxygen-deprived environment within the keel/bolt interface, carbon steel and even stainless steel will waste away if there's any water intrusion. This does not happen as easily with a lead keel since lead is essentially inert.

I have no problems buying a boat with either encapsulated or bolt-on keels, as long as the keel/hull joint (if any), carrying structure and shock transferring structure are well and conservatively designed. But I WILL NOT buy a boat that has anything other than a keel made from lead and high quality SS or bronze hardware.

[JTBarn]

I have a Tartan 3800, 1994. It has a bolt on keel and I think there are 9 one inch SS bolts cast into the lead keel.

We bought the boat in 2014 and discovered that the keel had separated from the hull by about 3/8 inch and this gap had been filled and painted over, probably over years. Some of the threads on the bolts had corroded enough to allow the keel to separate and allow the gap to open on one end. We had a lot of discussion and liked at options but finally decided to clean out the filler and lower the boat on the stands enough to seal the gap. We then doubled up the nuts to gain purchase on good threads and tighten the remaining nuts. We then faired out the hull keel joint.

When I hauled the boat last spring some of the fairing had failed but the joint was as tight as it was 6 years ago.

You should have a good look and the nuts and bolts and the hull- keel joint but go from there. Tartans are solid boats so keep that in mind.

[malbert73]

To the OP- what did you end up doing? Hopefully you came to your senses - avoiding all boats with bolt on keels is like never getting in a plane or car because they crash

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by malbert73

To the OP- what did you end up doing? Hopefully you came to your senses - avoiding all boats with bolt on keels is like never getting in a plane or car because they crash

Looks like he went with a Cal 39. Lovely cruising boat by Bill Lapworth.

With bolt-on fin keel.