Traditional Main vs In-mast Furling

[siamese]

I owned a Catalina 309 with in mast furling. It was a total pain in the rear, but not for reasons that would necessarily condemn all in mast furlers.

I currently have a Catalina 28 with conventional main (full batten). In this size boat, the sail is small enough that it's easy enough to deal with it, despite the lack of lazy jacks, stack pack, or dutchman system.

In a larger boat, my first choice would be to have lazy jacks with a conventional main. Still, if the right boat came along in the right condition, features, and price, I wouldn't let the roller furling kill the deal.

[Cormorant]

For Phil the OP, here are some of the earlier threads alluded to:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ing-94796.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...not-63150.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ng-105774.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ms-159479.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...es-175362.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ter-44531.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...sts-49449.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...fit-84603.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...em-119105.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ing-15121.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...nce-30926.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ase-72382.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...url-60752.html

[Martkimwat]

Whatever one might say about it's reliability or not, you cannot deny that it is an awful lot of extra weight and windage aloft and if you are going to sail offshore for any length of time, you are bound to end up eventually experiencing storm force conditions, and that's when you will wish you didn't have all that extra top hamper.

[Deltasailor]

Originally Posted by Phil Mavis

Hi everyone.

My wife and I are boat shopping.

Question 1: What are your thoughts on in-furling mains vs traditional mainsails with a stack pack?

I am aware of the risks of jamming (usually under the cover of darkness and blowing 30. We have raced for years so we are initially looking for a traditional main as we have no problem flaking or using a stack pack.

So far, with the boats we are looking at, it appears that there are more in-mast furling boats out there which appears to be limiting the boats that are available to us to consider to purchase. We are looking more at production boats currently mostly Beneteaus and Jeanneaus. We don't need to open that can of worms in this thread.

Question 2: Do you think we are limiting ourselves for resale value down the road if we continue to look for a traditional main with a stack pack?

I appreciate any feedback you might have to offer.

Phil

I have a Jeanneau 371 with in mast furling. I HATE IT! I have never owned a boat with mast furling but give me slab reefing every time. If the in mast sail is new maybe it will furl but if it is not flat as a table cloth IMHP it will be a sod to furl or unfurl. Don't bother, get a traditional stack pack.

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by Martkimwat

Whatever one might say about it's reliability or not, you cannot deny that it is an awful lot of extra weight and windage aloft and if you are going to sail offshore for any length of time, you are bound to end up eventually experiencing storm force conditions, and that's when you will wish you didn't have all that extra top hamper.

We have sailed offshore a lot and have had winds to 55 knots. The main furler was a delight and a significant safety advantage.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by maxingout

...there was a yacht next to us in the marina who had just gotten a new in-mast furling mainsail installed in New Zealand. They were in the same weather, and they could not furl their mainsail. So he had to climb the mast and cut the sail down so that they could survive the storm. A totally new mainsail was destroyed in the process.

Isn't it also possible to have a jammed main halyard, with the same effect? And do you feel the same way about the furling jib?

[Phil Mavis]

Originally Posted by phydeaux

Take a look at the in-boom roller furlers. Forespar makes a a 'Leisure Furl" package that has worked well for us. Mechanically simple with a couple of options for cruising or coastal sailing, and if you're really concerned with your back, they've made a powered version,

LeisureFurlâ„¢

Thanks very much for this advice. This system is currently on a HR-39 that we are considering making an offer on and you're right, it looks like a very impressive system!

Phil

[Phil Mavis]

Originally Posted by hamburking

Isn't it also possible to have a jammed main halyard, with the same effect? And do you feel the same way about the furling jib?

I guess if the halyard jumped off the sheave at the masthead that would jam and cutting the halyard would be useless. Good point. Perhaps the odds of this happening would be lesser than a jamming furling main IMO.

Phil

[Phil Mavis]

Originally Posted by Cormorant

For Phil the OP, here are some of the earlier threads alluded to:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ing-94796.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...not-63150.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ng-105774.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ms-159479.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...es-175362.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ter-44531.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...sts-49449.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...fit-84603.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...em-119105.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ing-15121.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...nce-30926.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ase-72382.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...url-60752.html

Thanks for the links. Glad some of you are much more experienced at looking past posts up. I'm not one to spam but perhaps if the topic is continuously revisited, perhaps they could be made a common forum?

I feel sometimes fresh discussions can be more pertinent and meaningful than old ones. I'm new here so I'll try my best to follow the forum rules. I did a search, was having trouble locating something and posted a thread. Hope this isn't viewed as too annoying.

Thanks for the links again, I will read through them. To all who have replied, I really appreciate your advice. Many thanks.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Martkimwat

Whatever one might say about it's reliability or not, you cannot deny that it is an awful lot of extra weight and windage aloft and if you are going to sail offshore for any length of time, you are bound to end up eventually experiencing storm force conditions, and that's when you will wish you didn't have all that extra top hamper.

Weight aloft and windage is one of the main reasons why I will not be having this system on my next boat.

But not because of how the boat behaves in storm conditions. The extra windage and weight aloft doesn't make that much difference compared to size of the rig, and in-mast furling has other, very serious advantages, in storm conditions.

But the extra windage and weight aloft of in-mast furling makes a big difference in how the boat performs upwind. And it makes the boat roll more downwind and at anchor. Those are serious drawbacks.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by AiniA

We have sailed offshore a lot and have had winds to 55 knots. The main furler was a delight and a significant safety advantage.

My experience is the same. My opinion is that in-mast furling is a really good thing to have in heavy weather, and the heavier the weather, the gladder you are to have it.

Not just because reefing it is safer and easier, but maybe more significantly -- an in-mast furling main has a flatter shape when reefed down. It gets flatter and flatter as you reef it. Once you start reefing, all performance advantages of normal battened mainsails disappear.


Because you don't have to head up to reef, you can change the sail area even in horrendous sea conditions. A significant safety advantage. You can reduce sail almost instantly, and also increase it almost instantly -- so it's easier to keep the boat moving. Serious offshore sailors know how dangerous it is right AFTER the storm, when the wind has dropped but the sea is still up -- and how easy it is to broach if you can't keep way on. If you are using a storm trysail, it's a whole production to get it down, get your boom re-rigged, and get your mainsail back into action. With in-mast furling, the storm trysail is built-in, and you can deploy mainsail area in an instant when you need it, without leaving the cockpit. It's a really good thing in heavy weather.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by maxingout

When we arrived in New Caledonia, there was a yacht next to us in the marina who had just gotten a new in-mast furling mainsail installed in New Zealand. They were in the same weather, and they could not furl their mainsail. So he had to climb the mast and cut the sail down so that they could survive the storm. A totally new mainsail was destroyed in the process.

Originally Posted by hamburking

Isn't it also possible to have a jammed main halyard, with the same effect? And do you feel the same way about the furling jib?

I've known of a few boats where the RF jib gave issues. Usually it either boiled down to lack of maintenance, or crap technique. Typically the former. And if your jib gets stuck you need to figure out why before trying to pull it downwards using ever more force, thus making the jam worse.

In many tens of thousands of miles, over decades of sailing, I can't say as I've ever had a main halyard jam. Been on all kinds of boats, in all kinds of weather without issue. And were the halyard to jam, you go aloft, release the shackle, & the sail comes down.

Occasionally you'll get cars or slugs which want to bind, & usually with a bit of gentle coaxing they'll come unstuck. You simply rehoist the main a foot or two, & then gently tug downwards on things while easing the halyard. And if things are stupid finicky, head into the wind along with doing this.

One needn't head upwind in order to reef, just get the battens off of the shrouds, & with a bit of downward force, it'll come down. And with reefing lines led through the tack rings, it makes this quite easy to accomplish.

Know that most of whether or not a main is easy to reef has to do with the efficency of her reefing setup. So that with low friction rings at the tack reef points, & similar (or blocks) at the clew reefs, it makes the task fairly easy. Particularly when paired with using (slippery) spectra reefing lines, & having the reefing lines & the halyard led back to the cockpit.
If this is done I see no "safety" advantage with an in mast furler.

95%+ of the issues that people have could have been avoided by regularly inspecting their gear, & properly maintaining it. Usually via a quick trip up the mast before & after a long passage to check for any hardware problems. Including with the headstay foil. Which, yes, means dropping the jib, but it's only prudent to inspect the sail & furler regularly anyway. Especially so before undertaking a long passage. It's one of those things that's on the pre-passage checklist. Much as is checking your fuel filters for sediment & water, etc.


EDIT: The main halyard sheave is one of those where it pays to spend a bit extra & get a low friction sheave, with self contained bearings. This cuts down on halyard friction, & the force needed for hoisting the sail immensely. It also makes the sail come down much, much easier. Of course so does regular cleaning & lubrication of the mast slot or track & hardware.

[Lost Horizons]

My first two boats had classic main sails, the third was furling, the fourth will most likely be furling too.

[Alita49DS]

As others have said, this is a perennial!

Question 1

In many ways it really does depend on the size of the boat and if you race or cruise. When did you last see a dingy with in mast furling? How many modern large yachts do not use modern sail handling technology in the form of in mast or in boom?

If you are a masochist then by all means go for slab on a boat over 40ft. Otherwise, ignore the old farts who suck their teeth at anything new and mutter into their beer about trouble. My in mast has, so far, never jammed in thousands of miles.

There was an excellent article on the subject in Yachting Monthly some years ago. It concluded that all round, and for safety, in mast was best.

I have had both. I would now never ever even contemplate buying a large cruising boat which did not have modern in mast furling. Any more than I would buy one without a roller furling jib. I am old enough to have had a boat with piston hanks for the jib and remember, the now probably dead, old farts who said how much better that system was than new fangled rollers which could never obtain the same set.

So: choose your century. Do you want to live in this one or the last?

Question 2

Depends on the size of the boat and intended use. If for racing then slab to sell. If large and for cruising then in mast or boom to sell to other than those who are either masochist or stuck in the last century. The same people who would try and buy a large car with a manual gear change. If they could find any still being made.

[Cormorant]

Originally Posted by Phil Mavis

Thanks for the links. Glad some of you are much more experienced at looking past posts up. [...]

Phil, for best results under "Search" use the "Google Custom Search" box rather than the native CF "Search Forums" box.

And I don't know if this will return different results than the Google Custom Search function, but my preferred way of searching CF is to go up to my Chrome omnibar and type in
"site:cruisersforum.com[space][search keywords]"

Note that there's no space after the colon and before the site URL.

Works for any other site as well, like Yachtworld or Craigslist.

Lastly, though some may find it annoying to have a perennial question re-asked, I find it's useful at a certain level. Three years ago this question wasn't on my radar screen and I would've glazed right over posts about it. Now you've brought it up and I'm educating myself along with you.