True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

[GWB]

Originally Posted by Polux

And finally I had some time to answer this interesting point:



Yes I agree that racing across oceans solo or short handed and cruising are completely different things but the point is: Is the type of hull that allows a solo sailor to push and sail fast (many times under autopilot) a racer trough oceans has advantages for a an inexperienced, solo or short crew while cruising oceans?

It seems to me that the answer is obvious since what makes a solo racer offshore hull different from the hull of offshore crew racers is not the ability to go faster in absolute terms (quite the contrary) but to go faster while sailed by a solo sailor. That means and easier to sail, easier exploitable safer boat that nonetheless has a very good sailing performance.

These are essential qualities in what regards cruising boats that most of the times are sailed with short crews and many times relatively inexperienced sailors. For them an easy safe boat that can sail well is a top priority and that's why most cruising hulls are today based on the solo racer's hull concept and for the same reason: Easier and safer boats that sail well, boats with a bigger overall stability, stable platforms that sail with little heel, boats with a superior directional stability, more forgiving and easier to be autopilot driven, boats that roll less downwind or on an anchorage.

On my blog, on the last post, I developed much more the subject explaining in detail the advantages and disadvantages of this type of hulls in what regards racing and cruising.

What size of boat are you waxing lyrical about here Paulo?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by oregonian

hmmm! the last time I stopped by Aitutaki there were two Westsail 32's, two Island Packets and a German steel full keeler. Thats five full keels and five attached rudders out of five boats. Must have just been one of those weird rare coincidences huh Jim?

Well gee, I dunno, Oregonian. What do you think it proves? That because in that one specific anchorage at that one specific time all the boats were full keel examples, then so it must always be? Or what?

I have certainly been in many distant cruising anchorages where the great majority of the boats were modern production vessels. I've been in others, like here in Port Cygnet where modern boats are in the minority... in fact there are more traditional timber boats than Benehuntlinas here... not even one Bennie or Jenneau in the place right now. And that proves nothing just as your example does. And for what it is worth, I wouldn't go to sea in most of these old type vessels, for despite their full keels and attached rudders, few of them are strong enough for heavy weather at sea. On the other hand, I've done quite a few sea miles in fin keeled plastic and timber boats, boats that I did trust despite their lack of BWB credentials by the OP's standards.

So, back to your post: please tell me what I was supposed to learn from it.

Jim

[GWB]

I guess I can't help myself Jim - you were supposed to learn that what you said is bs
Your statement about full keeled boats further proves this


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by Polux

The hull type favors upwind sailing in detriment of downwind sailing. Probably they have not more ocean miles per boat than other voyage boats like Amel, Boreal or OVNI. Once drunk some beers with a guy that had circumnavigated 3 times with the same OVNI.

The Sundeer/Deerfoot designs were not, according to their designer, optimized for upwind sailing. They were narrow with waterlines virtually as long as the boat to be easily driven by a fairly low aspect, easy for 2 to handle sailplan. 56' to 80' and 2 crew only.

As far as miles per boat, I am referring to ALL the Dashew sailing designs built, not just a few. Certainly Amels, Ovnis, et all have individually racked up many miles but the total of those built divided by the total mileage would be pretty low.

Deerfoot designs were custom - there are no 2 the same really - and they number somewhere around 2 dozen or less. The Sundeer were the production run - less than 24 of the 60/64 if I'm not mistaken and less than a dozen 56' models.

32 of their individual boats have sailed a total of 1,783,500 miles for a per boat average of 55,734 miles. This includes 21 circumnavigations.

I doubt any other designer/builder could match these numbers.

From Steve Dashew's website:











The sailboat designs are very different from the powerboat designs as can be seen in the following picture. The only 2 things they have in common are narrow beam for their length and self righting ability in a wave induced capsize.

[Arthur Garfield]

There are a number of Dashew FPBs for sale unlike scarce Dashew sailboats.
Curious.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by GWB

I guess I can't help myself Jim - you were supposed to learn that what you said is bs
Your statement about full keeled boats further proves this


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

GWB, that is a pretty strong and kind of unpleasant statement... that what I said is BS. If you are going to accuse me of BSing, I'd appreciate it if you would be a little more specific as just what parts are BS.

My statement about full keel boats (

And for what it is worth, I wouldn't go to sea in most of these old type vessels, for despite their full keels and attached rudders, few of them are strong enough for heavy weather at sea.

) stands as truth, for I would not go to sea in these boats. Not all full keel boats are strongly built, no matter what you believe, and many of the ones here in Port Cygnet are aged, not well maintained, and were not intended as open ocean boats when new. Hence, I don't want to go to sea in them now, and that is not BS There are plenty of full keel boats that I would be happy to sail at sea, though they are not my choice.

If that is not the statement that you are calling BS, please let us all know to which one you were referring.

Ohhh... maybe it was my saying that often in cruising destination anchorages the majority of boats are modern production vessels rather than traditional full keel types. I don't know where you have cruised, but in the South Pacific anchorages that we've been in for the past 27 years it is often demonstrably true, and the fraction that are full keel keeps diminishing. You may not approve of this, but it is out there to be observed. The example of 5 out of 5 may have been true, I don't argue that, but it isn't typical in my experience. In fact, I can say absolutely that I have NEVER been in an anchorage that was 100% full keelers... because there has always been at least one finner there: me!

Jim

[oregonian]

Jim Cate, It appears to me that you have a problem reading. I was not offering any proof of anything. I was simply stating an observation, just as you, supposedly were, when you stated that "...and hardly any of them have full keels and attached rudders". Obviously your observations differ from mine. Another observation of mine, made here at home recently, is that 2 of the last "returnies" from their circumnavigations, are an Alajuela 38 and a Pacific Seacraft 31 Mariah.

[gonesail]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

The builders are giving the buyers exactly what they want, big affordable space that still sails well in most cases.

I think the builders are building what THEY want. so i don't agree with your statement. if buyers insisted on more seaworthy designs i think they would get them. but we take whatever is there so in essence we deserve it right?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by gonesail

I think the builders are building what THEY want. so i don't agree with your statement. if buyers insisted on more seaworthy designs i think they would get them. but we take whatever is there so in essence we deserve it right?

A shop building what they want with no consideration of the market only works if they hold a monopoly.

There are dozens of builders both small and large. If buyers really wanted traditional full keel boats, someone would offer it and quickly dominate the market, at least until everyone else started building traditional full keel boats... if that is what buyers really want. Reality is the vast majority prefer the advantages of a modern design.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by GWB

What size of boat are you waxing lyrical about here Paulo?

I don't understand the contempt regarding the "waxing lyrical". Certainly if you have something to add you can add it without resourcing to that kind of empty and offensive language, even so I will reply: Go to my blog and you will see practical examples. The smaller the boat the bigger the importance in what regards a proportionally bigger stability given by the hull form stability of a very beamy hull (in what regards offshore solo sailing).

That is why proportionally, boats like mini racers (and derived cruisers) are more beamier than 60ft solo racers (and their derived cruisers), Even more so if we are talking about 80ft yachts.

Even 100ft yachts when designed to be sailed for a very short crew will benefit from this approach. Here you have Nomad, designed to be sailed by a crew of 3. A narrower yacht of this size would need at least the double:

A bord de Nomad IV

And here you have a Django 7.20 that is circumnavigating:

Into the wind | Un bateau , un piolet , un parapente , un tour du monde . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmsReyMb2yY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T9qrl9U3hw

Following the mini racer concept they make also the even smaller Django 6.70:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYFz9kDIeh0

[Polux]

Originally Posted by gonesail

I think the builders are building what THEY want. so i don't agree with your statement. if buyers insisted on more seaworthy designs i think they would get them. but we take whatever is there so in essence we deserve it right?

This statement is far off: builders are not crazy, they have a business and the goal is making money. Obviously they do not make what they want but what sailors that have the money to buy their boats want. Particularly builders of voyage boats build what voyager sailors want as a voyage boat.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

A shop building what they want with no consideration of the market only works if they hold a monopoly.

There are dozens of builders both small and large. If buyers really wanted traditional full keel boats, someone would offer it and quickly dominate the market, at least until everyone else started building traditional full keel boats... if that is what buyers really want. Reality is the vast majority prefer the advantages of a modern design.

Rustler in the UK is building traditional yachts, as is Cape George in the US among others. They don't exactly "dominate the market" though.

If anyone wants one full keel yachts are available new - but apparently few do.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

Rustler in the UK is building traditional yachts, as is Cape George in the US among others. They don't exactly "dominate the market" though.

If anyone wants one full keel yachts are available new - but apparently few do.

Even Rustler has acknowledged the reality of The Market...

The 36 is the only full-keeled boat they still build, the new 37 pictured below, their 42 and all their other models now feature a more contemporary underbody...

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Not all full keel boats are strongly built, no matter what you believe, and many of the ones here in Port Cygnet are aged, not well maintained, and were not intended as open ocean boats when new. Hence, I don't want to go to sea in them now, and that is not BS There are plenty of full keel boats that I would be happy to sail at sea, though they are not my choice.

You're taking a subset, and expanding your analysis of that subset to the superset. Your use of "all", "few", "most" to support your opinions indicates a lack of actual statistics.

What you're saying, in a nutshell: Some full keel boats are not well maintained and weren't intended as ocean boats. Therefore, I'm going to make a general statement about full-keel boats.

Then you try to appear more objective by saying "There are plenty that I would be happy to sail at sea, but they're not my choice", while your original statement was " I wouldn't go to sea in most of these old type vessels, for despite their full keels and attached rudders, few of them are strong enough for heavy weather at sea. "

On what basis are you making the claim that few full keel boats are strong enough for heavy weather? Do you have some statistical data, is it anecdotal, or are you just talking?

Then you jump the shark again when you say that most boats in cruising destinations are modern production boats.

I would guess that the reason one finds modern production boats in cruising destinations is likely because most available boats that would appeal to people with the means to cruise the world (read: newer vintage boats) are going to be modern production boats. I don't think it says anything about the durability of full-keel boats.

At some point, these discussions all seem to devolve into people defending their own choice of boat, often at the expense of people who made different calculations when choosing theirs.

It may very well be that some full-keel boats and some modern production boats are very capable ocean-going boats.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by oregonian

hmmm! the last time I stopped by Aitutaki there were two Westsail 32's, two Island Packets and a German steel full keeler. Thats five full keels and five attached rudders out of five boats. Must have just been one of those weird rare coincidences huh Jim?

Think draft, mate, draft.

Look at Aitutaki entrance depth and you get your weird coincidence explained.

Cheers,
b.